Ordination and Parajika Preceptors

[Bankei]

Hi

A while back I remember asking this question with an excellent answer by Bhikkhu Dhammanando over at e-sangha. But the site is down. Hope we don't lose all of that valuable information.

Anyway, my question is this. What happens if a preceptor at an ordination ceremony has actually commited a parajika offence and conceals it knowing he is no longer a monk. This has happened in Thailand and in India - The ex-Bhikkhu Sangharakshita said he later found out his preceptor and a few other monks in his ordination ceremony had mistresses and children.

Apparently this does not mean the ordination is invalid. I cannot remember the reasons for this. Does anyone know?

I ask again because this may have some bearing on the ordination of Bhikkhuni. Some claim the ordination is invalid because the nuns doing the ordination ceremony are not properly ordained. Trying to work out what the difference here is with the monks.

Thanks

Bankei

[gavesako]

If there are at least 5 other bhikkhus present at the Upasampada ceremony then it would be valid, even though the Upajjhaya (preceptor) -- if he was parajika, i.e. not real bhikkhu -- would not count. Remember, it is the Sangha that "accepts" the new candidate, not the Upajjhaya who "ordains him". The role of the Upajjhaya is merely to give instruction. So ordaining without a valid Upajjhaya would just be a dukkata offence (if I remember well).

[notself]

If there are at least 5 other bhikkhus present at the Upasampada ceremony then it would be valid, even though the Upajjhaya (preceptor) -- if he was parajika, i.e. not real bhikkhu -- would not count. Remember, it is the Sangha that "accepts" the new candidate, not the Upajjhaya who "ordains him". The role of the Upajjhaya is merely to give instruction. So ordaining without a valid Upajjhaya would just be a dukkata offence (if I remember well).

What would be the result if the false bhikkhu was one of only five so that there would be only four valide bhikkhus, would the ordination be invalid if the false bhikkhu were later discovered to be false?

[Bankei]

Thanks Bhante

So there has to be a quorum of real Bhikkhus which is 4 +1 outside of India.

I guess that is why most ceremonies have about 10 or more, just in case.....

[gavesako]

Thanks Bhante

So there has to be a quorum of real Bhikkhus which is 4 +1 outside of India.

I guess that is why most ceremonies have about 10 or more, just in case.....

There are different sanghakammas with different requirements: 4, 5, 10 or 20 bhikkhus. But usually they think "the more the better" just to make sure that there are always at least the required quorum of "real Bhikkhus" present. However, nobody can be sure that the ordination lineage is in fact unbroken since the time of the Buddha (in a technical sense).