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Ordination and Parajika Preceptors - Dhamma Wheel

Ordination and Parajika Preceptors

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

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Bankei
Posts: 430
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:40 am

Ordination and Parajika Preceptors

Postby Bankei » Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:39 am

Hi

A while back I remember asking this question with an excellent answer by Bhikkhu Dhammanando over at e-sangha. But the site is down. Hope we don't lose all of that valuable information.

Anyway, my question is this. What happens if a preceptor at an ordination ceremony has actually commited a parajika offence and conceals it knowing he is no longer a monk. This has happened in Thailand and in India - The ex-Bhikkhu Sangharakshita said he later found out his preceptor and a few other monks in his ordination ceremony had mistresses and children.

Apparently this does not mean the ordination is invalid. I cannot remember the reasons for this. Does anyone know?

I ask again because this may have some bearing on the ordination of Bhikkhuni. Some claim the ordination is invalid because the nuns doing the ordination ceremony are not properly ordained. Trying to work out what the difference here is with the monks.

Thanks

Bankei
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Bankei

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gavesako
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Re: Ordination and Parajika Preceptors

Postby gavesako » Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:50 pm

If there are at least 5 other bhikkhus present at the Upasampada ceremony then it would be valid, even though the Upajjhaya (preceptor) -- if he was parajika, i.e. not real bhikkhu -- would not count. Remember, it is the Sangha that "accepts" the new candidate, not the Upajjhaya who "ordains him". The role of the Upajjhaya is merely to give instruction. So ordaining without a valid Upajjhaya would just be a dukkata offence (if I remember well).
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

- Theravada texts
- Translations and history of Pali texts
- Sutta translations

notself
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Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: Ordination and Parajika Preceptors

Postby notself » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:30 am

Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he is indeed the noblest victor who conquers himself. ---Dhp 103

Bankei
Posts: 430
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:40 am

Re: Ordination and Parajika Preceptors

Postby Bankei » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:33 pm

Thanks Bhante

So there has to be a quorum of real Bhikkhus which is 4 +1 outside of India.

I guess that is why most ceremonies have about 10 or more, just in case.....
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Bankei

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gavesako
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Re: Ordination and Parajika Preceptors

Postby gavesako » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:10 pm

Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

- Theravada texts
- Translations and history of Pali texts
- Sutta translations


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