View of Mahayana/Vajrayana

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View of Mahayana/Vajrayana

Postby theravada_guy » Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:51 am

Greetings all,

Would Classical Theravada view the Mahayana and Vajrayana schools, sects, etc. heretics? If not, how are they labeled?
With metta,

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Re: View of Mahayana/Vajrayana

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:55 am

Greetings,

I'm not sure of the English rendering, let alone the Pali original, but they would at least be regarded as "schismatic".

I look forward to hearing from our members more learned in the classical perspectives, the range of language that was used traditionally in relation to schismatic sects.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: View of Mahayana/Vajrayana

Postby Reductor » Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:42 am

EDIT: Oh poop. Does a new publication count here. I wasn't paying attention to the forum this was on.

I think at the time that these other schools of thought departed from the original dissension of the Buddha's teaching they would have been considered schismatic. This is mostly based on this from Thans "BCM1:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .html#Sg10

To qualify as a schism, the division has to meet five criteria:

* 1) The Community is originally united, which means that it is composed of bhikkhus of common affiliation living in the same territory.
* 2) It contains at least nine bhikkhus.
* 3) It becomes involved in a dispute over any of eighteen grounds for a creating a schism. In other words, one of the sides advocates any of the following positions, explaining:

Dhamma as not-Dhamma;
not-Dhamma as Dhamma;
Vinaya as not-Vinaya;
not-Vinaya as Vinaya;
what was not spoken by the Buddha as having been spoken by him;
what was spoken by the Buddha as not;
what was not regularly practiced by him as having been regularly practiced by him;
what was regularly practiced by him as not;
what was not formulated by him as having been formulated by him;
what was formulated by him as not;
an offense as a non-offense;
a non-offense as an offense;
a heavy offense as a light offense;
a light offense as heavy;
an offense leaving a remainder (i.e., not a pārājika) as an offense leaving no remainder (§);
an offense leaving no remainder as an offense leaving a remainder (§);
a serious offense as not serious; or
a not-serious offense as serious.
* 4) There are at least four bhikkhus on either side.
* 5) The dispute reaches the point where the two sides conduct separate Pāṭimokkha recitations, Invitation ceremonies, or other Community transactions within the same territory.


I think the Mahayana and Vajrayana schools would no longer be considered schisms, because of the time and locational distances involved.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

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To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: View of Mahayana/Vajrayana

Postby Ben » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:49 am

A reminder...
Posts that do not conform to the strict criteria of the Classical Theravada forum are deleted without warning.
However interesting a Mahayanist or Vajrayanist pov is, its off-topic in this forum.
Repeat offenders may attract disciplinary action.
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Re: View of Mahayana/Vajrayana

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:29 am

Greetings,

AN 2.23: Abhasita Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who slander the Tathagata."

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: View of Mahayana/Vajrayana

Postby Dan74 » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:39 am

I believe there is something from Uttaravipatti Sutta AN.IV.163 that addresses this:

"Whatever is well-spoken [subhasita], all that is the word of the Buddha [Buddhabhasita]."

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Re: View of Mahayana/Vajrayana

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:11 am

Dan74 wrote:I believe there is something from Uttaravipatti Sutta AN.IV.163 that addresses this:

"Whatever is well-spoken [subhasita], all that is the word of the Buddha [Buddhabhasita]."

_/|\_

Yes; however, what determines what is "well-spoken?"
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: View of Mahayana/Vajrayana

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:44 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Dan74 wrote:I believe there is something from Uttaravipatti Sutta AN.IV.163 that addresses this:

"Whatever is well-spoken [subhasita], all that is the word of the Buddha [Buddhabhasita]."

_/|\_

Yes; however, what determines what is "well-spoken?"

And the answer is ?
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

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Re: View of Mahayana/Vajrayana

Postby Kare » Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:50 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Dan74 wrote:I believe there is something from Uttaravipatti Sutta AN.IV.163 that addresses this:

"Whatever is well-spoken [subhasita], all that is the word of the Buddha [Buddhabhasita]."

_/|\_

Yes; however, what determines what is "well-spoken?"


Since the 37 bodhipakkhiyadammas are common to all schools of Buddhism (according to Warder: Indian Buddhism, p. 81), it may perhaps be reasonable to suppose that any saying that is conforming with these dhammas, is "well-spoken". R.M.L. Gethin: The Buddhist Path to Awakening contains a detailed study of these bodhipakkhiyadhammas.
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Re: View of Mahayana/Vajrayana

Postby Dan74 » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:04 pm

And the answer is...... drumbeat.....

.....whatever is conducive to enlightenment!

(bet you didn't see that one coming!)

This is mentioned both in Cullavaga of the Vinaya and in the Anguttara Nikaya (according to Williams p. 42). I am no scholar and most of the references I would mention are not appropriate for this forum, but the point was simply to say that the Buddha may not have intended for the Canon to have been closed with the parinibbana. After all quite a number of discourses in the Nikayas were given by the Buddha's disciples (and approved by the Buddha), so he may have left a possibility for other arahats after the parinirvana to continue to explain the Dhamma and to make some of these explanations canonical. And the sutta I cite above appears (to me) to support that.

But I am no scholar (as you know).

_/|\_

PS But Kare is, and he appears to have beat me to the punch, although I don't know what the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhammas are (factors conducive to enlightenment??)

PPS With apologies, I will bow out of this discussion, since my learning of Classical Theravada is not going to be enough to keep up.
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Re: View of Mahayana/Vajrayana

Postby Paññāsikhara » Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:10 pm

Although the 37 are common to all schools, they are usually only used as further expressions of the path. I think at least we'd need to include the other three truths, too, wouldn't we?

Those definitions from the Pali Vinaya above, could be used - by those inclined to literal meanings - to justify each and any school considering every other school schismatic. Personally, such an attitude would probably exacerbate any problems or differences in understanding.
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Re: View of Mahayana/Vajrayana

Postby Kare » Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:54 pm

Paññāsikhara wrote:Although the 37 are common to all schools, they are usually only used as further expressions of the path. I think at least we'd need to include the other three truths, too, wouldn't we?


Yes, of course. But they are already included ... in Right View.
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Re: View of Mahayana/Vajrayana

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:12 am

Dan74 wrote:And the answer is...... drumbeat.....

.....whatever is conducive to enlightenment!.
That is the real question: What, outside of the Buddha's teachings, is conducive to awakening?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: View of Mahayana/Vajrayana

Postby Paññāsikhara » Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:36 am

Kare wrote:
Paññāsikhara wrote:Although the 37 are common to all schools, they are usually only used as further expressions of the path. I think at least we'd need to include the other three truths, too, wouldn't we?


Yes, of course. But they are already included ... in Right View.


Okay, that is one way of looking at it. Kind of leads to having those three other truths already in the fourth truth, but that's not an insurmountable problem.
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Re: View of Mahayana/Vajrayana

Postby Dan74 » Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:53 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Dan74 wrote:And the answer is...... drumbeat.....

.....whatever is conducive to enlightenment!.
That is the real question: What, outside of the Buddha's teachings, is conducive to awakening?


Hmmm... Not really possible to answer this question and remain within the terms of the Classical Theravada forum. At least not for me.

So I will maintain the (ig)noble silence. :sage:

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Re: View of Mahayana/Vajrayana

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:57 am

Greetings Dan,

Well done. I applaud your noble silence. :sage:

That said, feel free to create a splinter-topic in the Dhammic Free-For-All forum in which to explore that particular question from whatever angle you like.

Then feel free also to come back here and post a link to your DFFA-located topic. The forum-specific rules certainly aren't intended to stifle discussion, merely to set parameters that facilitate focused discussion.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: View of Mahayana/Vajrayana

Postby PeterB » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:43 am

An elegant solution Retro.
I will benefit most from the forum if I post only on the Classical Theravada and Theravada Meditation subforae.
So thats what I intend.

:anjali:
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Re: View of Mahayana/Vajrayana

Postby Dan74 » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:18 am

Following Retro's suggestion, Ive started a topic on What is Conducive to Awakening here:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3474

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