Entering the stream
Re: Entering the stream
I think it means that one will not have doubts about past future and also will have no need to look towards past or future.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- Dhammanando
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Re: Entering the stream
Hi Element,
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
What I stated accords with the commentarial understanding of the quote, which is what this Classical Theravada Forum is concerned with. (If you have no interest in this, then it would be better for all of us that you stop posting here, as your posts will merely serve to distract from the sub-forum's proper focus). But even if there were no commentary, it still would not prove that my take on the passage is wrong. It would merely mean that we would have no criterion to decide what the scope of the word "running" is. We wouldn't know whether it encompasses any directing of one's mind to the past and future or just certain modes of directing the mind.Element wrote:DhammanandoDhammanando wrote:It does not mean that a sotāpanna does not think at all about past or future lives.
What you have stated clearly contradicts the quote, which states: "Not running after the past" or "running into the future".
You have mistaken an 'is' for an 'ought'. The sutta says that noble disciples do not... It doesn't say that worldlings should not... In fact worldings will..., since they are still fettered by doubt (vicikicchā). The abandoning of doubt requires the development of insight, but insight isn't developed by any contrived adherence to a supposed imperative not to think about past and future.One seeking stream entry or arahantship should abandon all existential thoughts about the future.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: Entering the stream
Hello Ajahn,Dhammanando wrote:Hi Craig,
One wouldn't be starting from scratch because the fetters abandoned in the life when stream-entry is attained remain abandoned throughout whatever subsequent lives remain. One wouldn't, for example, be able to fall into wrong view.clw_uk wrote:We all know that it is said that when one becomes a stream-winner that they are certain to attain nibbana in no less than seven lives. How is this possible though? If one dies and is reborn then they would have forgotten all the teachings, practice etc in the past existence so wouldnt they be starting again from scratch?
Also, although it is theoretically possible for a stream-enterer to be reborn as a human being, there don't seem to be any accounts of this happening in Pali literature. All the stream-enterers who fail to attain arahatta in the same life are reported to have been reborn in one or another of the heavenly realms. Being reborn in such places they have a perfect recall of their former life, and of the teachings, practice etc. that they had learned.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
I wasn't aware that those who have attained the status of stream-enterer and nothing further before they die are not likely to be born again in the human realm. Interesting.
I recall a comment in Sutta study with Bhante Dhammasiha a few weeks back, where (my recall - possibly incomplete) it was stated that the attainment of Stream Entry was not the 'walk in the park' many people thought it was ~ in fact, as Arahantship followed in no more than 7 rebecomings after Stream Entry, and as we have been Wandering-On through Beginningless Time, it follows that Stream Entry is the most difficult achievement of all. A little depressing for those of us still suffering from attraction to worldly activities and wandering-mind in meditation.
metta and respect,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
- Dhammanando
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- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
- Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun
Re: Entering the stream
Dear Chris,
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Well, I really don't know whether it's likely or unlikely. It's just that I've never come across any accounts of it happening in the Pali texts, and nor have any of the more learned monks whom I've asked about it. But we shouldn't read too much into that, for even in the case of the sotapannas reborn as devas, the accounts are rather few in number and in most cases they only get their names in the books because they came back to visit the Buddha after death, or because they had been unusually close to him in their human life, or because their progress happens to make an unusually edifying (or unusually entertaining) story.Chris wrote:I wasn't aware that those who have attained the status of stream-enterer and nothing further before they die are not likely to be born again in the human realm. Interesting.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: Entering the stream
As far as I can see you're all entangled in a great tangle, and too far away from attaining at least the first jhana. Don't waste your time arguing with each other. Not many people have courage and luck to become Theravada Buddhist Monk. A rare chance. Keep aside everything. your heads burning in fire. Hurry yourselves to extinguish it...!!!
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Re: Entering the stream
Except that one can enter the stream without Jhanas, even the some hardcore Theravadins will agree that access concentration is enough for the entry and at that instance, supermundane Jhana will arise along with knowledges or discernments on the characteristics of the four Noble Truths and the end of the first three fetters.amrit wrote:As far as I can see you're all entangled in a great tangle, and too far away from attaining at least the first jhana.
Re: Entering the stream
Hello amrit, HeavenStorm,all,
I think I've posted this somewhere here already.
The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas ~ Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://mail.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
metta
Chris
I think I've posted this somewhere here already.
The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas ~ Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://mail.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6492
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
- Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun
Re: Entering the stream
Hi Amrit,
Welcome to Dhamma Wheel. I hope you'll benefit from your stay here. In the meantime I should like to ask you to please read the terms of service before posting again. The Classical Theravada Forum is not a suitable venue for delivering homilies.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Welcome to Dhamma Wheel. I hope you'll benefit from your stay here. In the meantime I should like to ask you to please read the terms of service before posting again. The Classical Theravada Forum is not a suitable venue for delivering homilies.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
amrit wrote:As far as I can see you're all entangled in a great tangle, and too far away from attaining at least the first jhana. Don't waste your time arguing with each other. Not many people have courage and luck to become Theravada Buddhist Monk. A rare chance. Keep aside everything. your heads burning in fire. Hurry yourselves to extinguish it...!!!
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
-
- Posts: 69
- Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:37 am
Re: Entering the stream
Thanks for the articles, it confirms my previous guess that practitioners don't require any forms of Jhanas to enter into Stream enterer and once returner.Chris wrote: I think I've posted this somewhere here already.
The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas ~ Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://mail.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The article goes on to suggest that a first jhana is required to attain the stage of non returner. I have doubts on that claim given the fact that in the Buddha's discourse in Satipatthana Sutta entitled "The Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness". Never did He once mention about Jhanas in it and yes, concentration as a factor of enlightenment was mentioned but whether that equates to Jhana remains to be seen.
Furthermore, its mentioned in abhidharma that to be reborn in a fourth dhyana heaven, one require to cultivate a level of concentration reaching the same, that is the fourth jhana. Given the fact that the non returners dwells in the pure abodes which are among the fourth dhyana heavens, its rather strange that article suggested the first jhana as a requirement for attaining non returners since it would not be enough for the aryans to get rebirth in pure abodes. So, the likely alternative is that either the fourth jhana is the true requirement for attaining anagamis or that the supramundane jhana, which comes with the attainment of anagamis, is equivalent to the fourth jhana in quality and characteristics.
I tend to believe in the latter given a host of reasons like the one mentioned earlier (Satipatthana Sutta discourse), possibility of the existence of "dry insight" Arahants and Arahants that only attains the first form Jhana, etc.
What do you guys think?
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6492
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
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Re: Entering the stream
Hi Heavenstorm,
2. The fact that non-returners are reborn in the Suddhāvāsas is due to their eradication of all the causes for rebirth in the Kāmaloka, but their non-eradication of attachment to the refined material and immaterial spheres.
3. The level of Suddhāvāsa in which a non-returner is reborn is conditioned by his/her development of mundane jhāna in the case of those who have done this.
4. In the case of those who haven't (the bare insight workers), the level will be the lowest, i.e., the Avihā Suddhāvāsa.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
1. As with all the ariyan paths and fruits, the supramundane jhāna at the moment of attaining the path and fruit of non-returning may be at the level of any of the five jhānas.Heavenstorm wrote:Furthermore, its mentioned in abhidharma that to be reborn in a fourth dhyana heaven, one require to cultivate a level of concentration reaching the same, that is the fourth jhana. Given the fact that the non returners dwells in the pure abodes which are among the fourth dhyana heavens, its rather strange that article suggested the first jhana as a requirement for attaining non returners since it would not be enough for the aryans to get rebirth in pure abodes. So, the likely alternative is that either the fourth jhana is the true requirement for attaining anagamis or that the supramundane jhana, which comes with the attainment of anagamis, is equivalent to the fourth jhana in quality and characteristics.
I tend to believe in the latter given a host of reasons like the one mentioned earlier (Satipatthana Sutta discourse), possibility of the existence of "dry insight" Arahants and Arahants that only attains the first form Jhana, etc.
What do you guys think?
2. The fact that non-returners are reborn in the Suddhāvāsas is due to their eradication of all the causes for rebirth in the Kāmaloka, but their non-eradication of attachment to the refined material and immaterial spheres.
3. The level of Suddhāvāsa in which a non-returner is reborn is conditioned by his/her development of mundane jhāna in the case of those who have done this.
4. In the case of those who haven't (the bare insight workers), the level will be the lowest, i.e., the Avihā Suddhāvāsa.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
-
- Posts: 69
- Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:37 am
Re: Entering the stream
Thanks for explanation, but there is a question still bugging me. I can roughly understand how ariyan paths and fruits are corresponded with fivefold material jhanas. However, the question is why leave the immaterial jhanas out? Aren't them supposed to be regarded as higher meditative concentrations and hence part of the Buddhist eightfold path as well?Dhammanando wrote: 1. As with all the ariyan paths and fruits, the supramundane jhāna at the moment of attaining the path and fruit of non-returning may be at the level of any of the five jhānas.
2. The fact that non-returners are reborn in the Suddhāvāsas is due to their eradication of all the causes for rebirth in the Kāmaloka, but their non-eradication of attachment to the refined material and immaterial spheres.
3. The level of Suddhāvāsa in which a non-returner is reborn is conditioned by his/her development of mundane jhāna in the case of those who have done this.
4. In the case of those who haven't (the bare insight workers), the level will be the lowest, i.e., the Avihā Suddhāvāsa.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6492
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
- Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun
Re: Entering the stream
Hi Heavenstorm,
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
I don't recall seeing any discussion of why path and fruition consciousnesses are always at the level of rūpa and not arūpa jhāna. My guess would be that it's because the arūpa cittas are not capable of taking any object but the conceptual ones of infinite space, infinite consciousness etc.Heavenstorm wrote:Thanks for explanation, but there is a question still bugging me. I can roughly understand how ariyan paths and fruits are corresponded with fivefold material jhanas. However, the question is why leave the immaterial jhanas out? Aren't them supposed to be regarded as higher meditative concentrations and hence part of the Buddhist eightfold path as well?
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
-
- Posts: 1952
- Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
- Location: London, UK
Re: Entering the stream
i think how a stream entrant has only 7 lives left (at max) belongs to those aspects called 'acinteyya' or unknowable/unthinkable- and is in the real of a buddhas understanding but not those of a mere mortals like us! trying to make sense of this will drive us around the bend! :cookoo:
With Metta
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Re: Entering the stream
Dear Dhammanando Bhikkhu,Dhammanando wrote:Hi Amrit,
Welcome to Dhamma Wheel. I hope you'll benefit from your stay here. In the meantime I should like to ask you to please read the terms of service before posting again. The Classical Theravada Forum is not a suitable venue for delivering homilies.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
I think I made a big mistake by adding that post. I arguments lead you nowhere. Knowledge is everywhere and one’s path has to be found by himself or herself, and that’s what I believed. Anyway, I profusely apologize if my statement offended you. I’m leaving this site. May you attain Nibbana soon.
Amrit
Re: Entering the stream
Thank you venerable. Do you have teh referecne for this, teh topic often comes up - especially among doubters of the way of dry-insight.Dhammanando wrote:
1. As with all the ariyan paths and fruits, the supramundane jhāna at the moment of attaining the path and fruit of non-returning may be at the level of any of the five jhānas.
2. The fact that non-returners are reborn in the Suddhāvāsas is due to their eradication of all the causes for rebirth in the Kāmaloka, but their non-eradication of attachment to the refined material and immaterial spheres.
3. The level of Suddhāvāsa in which a non-returner is reborn is conditioned by his/her development of mundane jhāna in the case of those who have done this.
4. In the case of those who haven't (the bare insight workers), the level will be the lowest, i.e., the Avihā Suddhāvāsa.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
with respect
Robert