A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

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Now up to page 23 in the book:
2. Patipatti — the practice. A bodhisatta is always out to help others and places the welfare of others before his own. He never expects any return for the efforts he makes for others’ welfare. Nor will he care to mention them, whether in his beneficiary’s presence or not. Even if the beneficiary “bites the hand that feeds,” a bodhisatta never turns back from any good deed. This holds true even when his life is in imminent danger. This is the bodhisatta’s sense of wishing well for the present. Regarding merits accruing from his noble deeds in giving or in cultivating virtue, etc., a bodhisatta sets his sights higher than the solitary attainment of nibbāna. He aims only at supreme enlightenment, by which he can show the way to nibbāna. This is a bodhisatta’s practice for the hereafter. This twofold practice also distinguishes a bodhisatta.
Not sure what this "twofold practice" is? Does the Sayadaw just mean present and future practice?
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Dhammanando
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

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Will wrote:Not sure what this "twofold practice" is? Does the Sayadaw just mean present and future practice?
Yes.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

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Valuable teaching on the value of Abhidhamma or Suttanta for ordinary folk:
There are two approaches to the definition, characteristics, and significance of the five aggregates, namely, the Suttanta method and the Abhidhamma method.

The Suttanta method is the Buddha’s approach to the Dhamma for the ordinary person. The Buddha gave succinct discourses to show ordinary people practical ways to cultivate insight, and to attain the path and its fruition in this very life.

The Abhidhamma method, however, offers a profound and exhaustive analytical treatment of all aspects of the Dhamma, with no particular reference to the practice for insight development. The latter method is actually meant for the Noble Ones to sharpen their analytical knowledge (patisambhidā-ñāna). It is not suitable as insight training for the ordinary person because it is too subtle. For example, those who have small boats should only ply the river for their livelihood and should not venture out to the deep ocean. Only if they have ocean-going vessels should they make an ocean voyage.

These days, people take up the holy life not actually intent on gaining path knowledge, but merely to acquire merit, purported to gradually mature as perfections. Practice of insight meditation is not popular. Learning and teaching of scriptures to develop wisdom is the usual practice. So the Abhidhamma method is popular. In this treatise, however, I shall employ the Suttanta method only.
Last edited by Nicholas Weeks on Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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retrofuturist
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Will,

Well technically it's referring to stream-entrants and up, rather than just arahants, but thanks for sharing the reference.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

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retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Will,

Well technically it's referring to stream-entrants and up, rather than just arahants, but thanks for sharing the reference.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Somewhere I picked up the notion that all four stages from stream-entrants up were Arahants. But no - only the 5th stage is an Arahant?
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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retrofuturist
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

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Greetings Will,

1. Stream-entrant > 2. Once-returner > 3. Non-returner > 4. Arahant (incl. Buddha)

The Fourfold Noble ariyan Sangha... Eightfold if split by gender.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

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retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Will,

1. Stream-entrant > 2. Once-returner > 3. Non-returner > 4. Arahant (incl. Buddha)

The Fourfold Noble ariyan Sangha... Eightfold if split by gender.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Thanks Retro - it will sink in eventually - hopefully. :bow:
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

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Near the beginning of chapter two we find:
This first aspect [of materiality or form] needs to be properly perceived whereby the primary elements become clear in their ultimate sense, without confusing them with the collective concept. One cannot stress this too strongly because the remaining aspects will not be discerned unless you have the first one well and truly within your grasp. So spare no pains to perceive it.
What is the "ultimate sense" and what is the "collective concept"?
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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mikenz66
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

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Hi Will,
Will wrote: What is the "ultimate sense" and what is the "collective concept"?
The translation seems a little clumsy to me, but if you look at this paragraph it should be clear:
Due to the collective concept people usually conceive the four primary elements as a composite whole rather than in their ultimate sense, which can only be discerned through insight knowledge. When insight arises, one sees that not the tiniest atom remains that is compact or solid.
The idea is to be able to perceive things in terms of the elements ("ultimate sense"), e.g. hardness or heat in the leg, rather than in terms of a concept ("my leg", "leg", "pain in the leg", or even "pain").

The use of the work "ultimate" is perhaps unfortunate, since it can lead to all sorts of philosophical arguments...

Metta
Mike
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Dhammanando
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

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Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:1. Stream-entrant > 2. Once-returner > 3. Non-returner > 4. Arahant (incl. Buddha)

The Fourfold Noble ariyan Sangha... Eightfold if split by gender.
It's eightfold when split by path-attainers and fruition-attainers.

Gender doesn't come into it; though if it did then it would be twenty-fourfold, for one would have to include asexual ariyans in the Brahma world. :smile:

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Dhammanando
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Will,
Will wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Somewhere I picked up the notion that all four stages from stream-entrants up were Arahants. But no - only the 5th stage is an Arahant?
I think referring to stream-enterers as "first stage arahants", once-returners as "second stage arahants" etc. may be a Chinese usage. On another forum I recall Bhikshu Dharmamitra talking in this way, to the puzzlement of his Theravadin fellow discussants.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

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Dhammanando wrote:Hi Will,
Will wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Somewhere I picked up the notion that all four stages from stream-entrants up were Arahants. But no - only the 5th stage is an Arahant?
I think referring to stream-enterers as "first stage arahants", once-returners as "second stage arahants" etc. may be a Chinese usage. On another forum I recall Bhikshu Dharmamitra talking in this way, to the puzzlement of his Theravadin fellow discussants.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yep, that is where I heard it used.

When (or if) you find time I do hope you will address the "15 catechisms" question I posed some posts back.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

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mikenz66 wrote:Hi Will,
Will wrote: What is the "ultimate sense" and what is the "collective concept"?
The translation seems a little clumsy to me, but if you look at this paragraph it should be clear:
Due to the collective concept people usually conceive the four primary elements as a composite whole rather than in their ultimate sense, which can only be discerned through insight knowledge. When insight arises, one sees that not the tiniest atom remains that is compact or solid.
The idea is to be able to perceive things in terms of the elements ("ultimate sense"), e.g. hardness or heat in the leg, rather than in terms of a concept ("my leg", "leg", "pain in the leg", or even "pain").

The use of the work "ultimate" is perhaps unfortunate, since it can lead to all sorts of philosophical arguments...

Metta
Mike
Thanks Mike, but it is still unclear. Is the "ultimate" aim of insight, impermanence or emptiness then?
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

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Will wrote: Thanks Mike, but it is still unclear. Is the "ultimate" aim of insight, impermanence or emptiness then?
That's why I don't like the word "ultimate". He's not talking about the "ultimate aim" of the meditation, he's talking about how we "see" our experience, in terms of the most basic things (the elements in this case).
I think he is trying to say something like:

We usually conceptualise our experience. So we are aware of "my leg" or "leg". With a bit of practise we are aware that in the leg there is "pain" or "tension", but those are still concepts. One way the Buddha offered for us to classify the physical part of our experience is in terms of the Elements (hard/soft, hot/cold, motion/support, fluidity/cohesion). So with a bit more practise we are just aware that there is some hardness, or some hot, or some cold, or motion in the body. Percieving just those basic elements are what is being translated as "ultimate".

Of course "hard" or "soft" are also concepts, so we have a bit of work to do to REALLY get this experientially.

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dh%C4%81tu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dhātu: 'elements', are the ultimate constituents of a whole.

I The 4 physical elements dhātu or mahā-bhūta popularly called earth, water, fire and wind, are to be understood as the primary qualities of matter. They are named in Pāli: pathavī-dhātu, āpo-dhātu, tejo-dhātu, and vāyo-dhātu In Vis.M XI, 2 the four elements are defined thus:,Whatever is characterized by hardness thaddha-lakkkhana is the earth or solid-element; by cohesion ābandhana or fluidity, the water-element; by heating paripācana the fire or heat-element; by strengthening or supporting vitthambhana the wind or motion-element. All four are present in every material object, though in varying degrees of strength. If, for instance, the earth element predominates, the material object is called 'solid', etc. - For the analysis of the 4 elements, see: dhātu-vavatthāna


Metta
Mike
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

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mikenz66 wrote:
Will wrote: Thanks Mike, but it is still unclear. Is the "ultimate" aim of insight, impermanence or emptiness then?
That's why I don't like the word "ultimate". He's not talking about the "ultimate aim" of the meditation, he's talking about how we "see" our experience, in terms of the most basic things (the elements in this case).
I think he is trying to say something like:

We usually conceptualise our experience. So we are aware of "my leg" or "leg". With a bit of practise we are aware that in the leg there is "pain" or "tension", but those are still concepts. One way the Buddha offered for us to classify the physical part of our experience is in terms of the Elements (hard/soft, hot/cold, motion/support, fluidity/cohesion). So with a bit more practise we are just aware that there is some hardness, or some hot, or some cold, or motion in the body. Percieving just those basic elements are what is being translated as "ultimate".

Of course "hard" or "soft" are also concepts, so we have a bit of work to do to REALLY get this experientially.
I do get your point now Mike, but do not think it is correct. Sayadaw says:
The three elements of extension, motion, and heat can be felt by touch. Even children know whether a thing is soft or hard. However, they are not able to discern the ultimate sense of what they only superficially recognize as the earth element. They know whether a thing is cold or hot, but they cannot discern the ultimate sense of what they only recognize as the fire element. Similarly they know that something moves, or supports, or is pressed, or swells. However, they do not discern the element of motion there.
When he uses "insight knowledge" it is a much deeper awareness than that of a child.
Due to the collective concept people usually conceive the four primary elements as a composite whole rather than in their ultimate sense, which can only be discerned through insight knowledge. When insight arises, one sees that not the tiniest atom remains that is compact or solid.
Ledi Sayadaw uses not "compact or solid" - so I will go with that for now. We will see what the rest of the teaching says.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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