according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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dhammastudier
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by dhammastudier »

can we please get :focus: ?

i'd really love to hear more about what everyone knows about the buddha's teachings on death. pretty please?
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings zac,
zac wrote:i'd really love to hear more about what everyone knows about the buddha's teachings on death. pretty please?
Death of what, though?

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by dhammastudier »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings zac,
zac wrote:i'd really love to hear more about what everyone knows about the buddha's teachings on death. pretty please?
Death of what, though?

Metta,
Retro. :)
so... i'm not sure where to go from here. we are going to micro manage the way things are worded to the point that i have to explain what the phrase "the buddha's teachings on death." means??? i think everyone knows what i mean.
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by retrofuturist »

zac wrote:i think everyone knows what i mean.
Greetings Zac,

The reason I ask, is because the reality is arising and cessation. What we would conventionally call "death" is a concept. As I quoted earlier...
Bhikkhu Nanananda wrote:All concepts of 'going', 'coming', 'being born', 'growing old' and 'dying' are to be found in the prolific. They simply do not exist in the nonprolific.
In other words, if there is no proliferation there is no death. This is why arahants can attain 'the deathless', here-and-now, namely because they have transcended the proliferation (and its underlying ignorance) that conceives of a "thing" that can "die".

Though I'm sure that you're thinking of something very different with your assumed definition, taking something as given which perhaps should not be taken as such... which is why we ask. The questions aren't as pedantic as you make them out to be.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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dhammastudier
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by dhammastudier »

retrofuturist wrote:
zac wrote:i think everyone knows what i mean.
Greetings Zac,

The reason I ask, is because the reality is arising and cessation. What we would conventionally call "death" is a concept. As I quoted earlier...
Bhikkhu Nanananda wrote:All concepts of 'going', 'coming', 'being born', 'growing old' and 'dying' are to be found in the prolific. They simply do not exist in the nonprolific.
In other words, if there is no proliferation there is no death. This is why arahants can attain 'the deathless', here-and-now, namely because they have transcended the proliferation (and its underlying ignorance) that conceives of a "thing" that can "die".

Though I'm sure that you're thinking of something different, taking something as given which perhaps should not be taken as such... which is why we ask. The questions aren't as pedantic as you make them out to be.

Metta,
Retro. :)
ok, but let's say everyone talking on this topic was at a dharma talk in a big auditorium. at some point the speaker says exactly what i wrote in the original topic. they would all assume what the speaker meant by these words because it's not convoluted or difficult to understand. when he said "any questions?" they would not raise their hands and point out possible flaws in the minute parts of his talk.

making assumptions is the only way we can function. if everything is picked apart then things come to a standstill, like this thread! explaining every little word in depth would turn each topic into a book and even then things could be picked apart. imagine you are talking to a buddhist monk and he says "rebirth" are you going to correct him?????? not that i'm a monk but why do this here if you wouldn't do it there? is it solving anything or making the conversation run more smoothly? i've heard monks and nuns say many things that are a little off and, unless i'm genuinely confused, i would never ever start pointing these "mistakes" out. again i don't equate myself with a monk! i'm only saying why not treat everyone the same? from abbott of a temple to some guy you're talking to at a book store, unless they are making no sense and are really confusing people, what good is it to pull an "english language professor" attitude on them?
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Zac,
ok, but let's say everyone talking on this topic was at a dharma talk in a big auditorium.
Then it's necessarily going to be pitched at the lowest common denominator. Do you want a lowest common denominator understanding, or do you want to strive to develop the sublime, profound understanding of the enlightened ones, so deep that the Buddha was originally tempted not to teach it? If the former, more worldly view, is all you're interested in then by all means reduce profound Dhamma teachings to worldly common denominators.
i'm only saying why not treat everyone the same?
Don't worry, I do. If you don't ask, you don't find. Any sincere question directed to a better understanding of the Dhamma is a good question (even if, in retrospect, it may be inappropriately worded).
from abbott of a temple to some guy you're talking to at a book store, unless they are making no sense and are really confusing people, what good is it to pull an "english language professor" attitude on them?
If you think this is some kind of "English language professor" mode then you're completely missing the point that people are trying to communicate to you.

You (anonymously) quote the Buddha addressing Mara, the personification of death, as an "end-maker" in your signature, but if you're content to settle for a conventional understanding of death, you will not be able to comprehend (either conceptually or experientially) what is meant by this.

Be clear, this is not an attack on you. This is an important point that will not be resolved through defensiveness.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by dhammastudier »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Zac,
ok, but let's say everyone talking on this topic was at a dharma talk in a big auditorium.
Then it's necessarily going to be pitched at the lowest common denominator. Do you want a lowest common denominator understanding, or do you want to strive to develop the sublime, profound understanding of the enlightened ones, so deep that the Buddha was originally tempted not to teach it? If the former, more worldly view, is all you're interested in then by all means reduce profound Dhamma teachings to worldly common denominators.
i'm only saying why not treat everyone the same?
Don't worry, I do. If you don't ask, you don't find. Any sincere question directed to a better understanding of the Dhamma is a good question (even if, in retrospect, it may be inappropriately worded).
from abbott of a temple to some guy you're talking to at a book store, unless they are making no sense and are really confusing people, what good is it to pull an "english language professor" attitude on them?
If you think this is some kind of "English language professor" mode then you're completely missing the point that people are trying to communicate to you.

You (anonymously) quote the Buddha addressing Mara, the personification of death, as an "end-maker" in your signature, but if you're content to settle for a conventional understanding of death, you will not be able to comprehend (either conceptually or experientially) what is meant by this.

Be clear, this is not an attack on you. This is an important point that will not be resolved through defensiveness.

Metta,
Retro. :)
ok so you're saying that i have to be suuuuuuuuuuper specific. it seemed that people knew what i meant at first and then the debate about the word "rebirth" messed everything up. i don't think anyone would be confused to read in a book or even the title of a book "the buddha's teachings on death.". the only way to make this confusing is to spin it into the mess of deep thinking philosophy around the idea of "no self" and other complicated buddhist ideals. i really just wanted to hear about what the original teachings were on death. and i think anyone who read my topic knew i meant "what are the buddha's teachings on what happens to a persons' consciousness between the moment of physical death and the transferring of their karmic storehouse to a new body.". i do love semantics as i was raised by and english professor! that's the funny part! but sometimes it's nice to just have a conversation without everything being immaculately perfect in wording.
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by beeblebrox »

What happens after death? Ignorance (volitional formations, consciousness, clinging, existence, another birth, death again, still ignorant...) Is there an escape?
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dhammastudier
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by dhammastudier »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Zac,
ok, but let's say everyone talking on this topic was at a dharma talk in a big auditorium.
Then it's necessarily going to be pitched at the lowest common denominator. Do you want a lowest common denominator understanding, or do you want to strive to develop the sublime, profound understanding of the enlightened ones, so deep that the Buddha was originally tempted not to teach it? If the former, more worldly view, is all you're interested in then by all means reduce profound Dhamma teachings to worldly common denominators.
i'm only saying why not treat everyone the same?
Don't worry, I do. If you don't ask, you don't find. Any sincere question directed to a better understanding of the Dhamma is a good question (even if, in retrospect, it may be inappropriately worded).
from abbott of a temple to some guy you're talking to at a book store, unless they are making no sense and are really confusing people, what good is it to pull an "english language professor" attitude on them?
If you think this is some kind of "English language professor" mode then you're completely missing the point that people are trying to communicate to you.

You (anonymously) quote the Buddha addressing Mara, the personification of death, as an "end-maker" in your signature, but if you're content to settle for a conventional understanding of death, you will not be able to comprehend (either conceptually or experientially) what is meant by this.

Be clear, this is not an attack on you. This is an important point that will not be resolved through defensiveness.

Metta,
Retro. :)
ok i think i have an excellent way to put this! if you and i were both novelists, i would be richard stark and you would be robert ludlum!!!! that's it! :smile:




if you don't know; ludlum's novels (bourne series and others) are always above four hundred pages and stark's ("the hunter" made into a film called "payback" with mel gibson and many others) are almost never more than two hundred, sometimes even one fifty. ludlum gives lots of detail and different angles on things and stark... well he writes starkly, including only the bare essentials needed to tell a story. ludlum feels that to get his point across everything must be very clearly explained and stark feels that people will just get it.

also this is not a bad thing, i love both authors! ;)

also what did you mean when you said my signature quote is "anonymous"? because i didn't say it came from the samyutta nikaya?
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by jcsuperstar »

zac, people are at different places on the path, to say "you get born again" is not sufficient for some as they are beyond that type of understanding, yet other people that is all they need to know.
the problem here, if it is a problem(i don't think so), is that Buddhism while perfectly fine as a "regular" religion that just tells you what to believe has more profound teaching that require you to ask the tough questions yourself and figure out things. there are different sorts of Buddhists, this was true even in the Buddha's time, he said there are those who follow on faith and those who must test everything for themselves the interesting thing is those who follow on faith practice cause they believe the teaching will work and so when they work they reach the deathless, and those who feel the need to test everything will practice and see if the teaching work and when they do will reach the deathless. this post in a good example of how teaching work on these levels, when i 1st read the thread i was like "meh boring" but then when cooran and retro posted what they posted i was like "hmmm interesting" the more complex/philosophical answers force you to ask questions, maybe at first you're like "what the hell does that mean?" but its a start.
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by kc2dpt »

MN 36 wrote:"I recollected my manifold past lives... I saw beings passing away & re-appearing..."
The Buddha had no qualms about speaking of I or you being reborn. It seems to only be folks on internet forums who have such qualms. Personally, zac, I found your original question clear and easy to understand. And I am glad you received relevant answers. In short, the Buddha didn't say much about what happens between death and birth. He said so little, in fact, that I personally have found it unhelpful to dwell on the topic.
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
zac wrote:also what did you mean when you said my signature quote is "anonymous"? because i didn't say it came from the samyutta nikaya?
Yes, a sutta name and/or reference number would be good.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

An interesting and relevant Dhamma teaching from Nina van Gorkom...

Source: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ibs5.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nina van Gorkom wrote:What we take for a person, a being, are in the ultimate sense citta, cetasika and rupa which arise and fall away all the time. The dying of what we call a person is not different from what occurs at this moment, namely, birth and death of nama and rupa. The last citta of this life-span falls away and is then succeeded by the first citta of the next life. We read in the "Dispeller of Delusion" (Commentary to the Book of Analysis, Ch 4, Classification of the Truths, 101) that there are three kinds of deaths: momentary death, conventional death and death as "cutting-off":

... Herein, "momentary death" is the breaking-up of the rupas and namas during the course (of an existence). "Tissa is dead", "Phussa is dead"; this is called "conventional death". The completing of his time (kalakiriya) without liability to rebirth-linking by one who has destroyed the cankers is called "death by cutting-off"....

Conventional death is the ending of someone's life-span; at that moment the dying-consciousness arises and falls away. So long as one has not attained arahatship, death will be followed by rebirth. The "death by cutting off" is the final passing away of the arahat who has no conditions for rebirth. Through insight we can understand by direct experience the momentary death, that is, the impermanence, of nama and rupa. The understanding of momentary death will help us to have less fear or grief when we are confronted with "conventional death", the ending of a life-span.
Virgo, if you're reading this, I hope you didn't fall out of your chair in shock... :tongue:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by Ben »

Hi Zac
zac wrote:ACCORDING TO THE PALI CANON, what happens after you die?

obviously we all know the over all idea of karma affecting one's rebirth. you die and are reborn in one of six realms in such and such conditions depending on your merit. as far as my studies have gone, in a nutshell, this is all that was said on the topic.

did the buddha ever say what the process was between the moment of death and the moment of birth?

again as far as i know he did not, which in my opinion, would imply that one is instantaneously transferred from one's dead body to an awaiting fetus or egg/sperm combo.

does anyone know any more about this?
Sometime ago I contacted Bhikkhu Bodhi and asked him about a seeming discrepency between the abhidhamma and the accounts in the suttas regarding rebirth. The abhidhammic point of view is that rebirth happens in the next mind-moment following death where as in the suttas, there is evidence to suggest that there is an intermediary state.
Venerable was very generous and confirmed my observation and copied an article he hadd written on the subject.
If I get time, I'll dig out his response, which I am sure, I have already posted on DW somewhere else.
kind regards

Ben
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,

That would be great!

I recall Bhikkhu Bodhi saying similar things in the footnotes to a couple of suttas across the Samyutta and Majjhima Nikayas so it would be interesting to read a consolidated view of what he has to say on the matter.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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