A little help: Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

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8fold
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A little help: Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

Postby 8fold » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:40 pm

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

I'm trying to read this sutta. From the six paragraph, can some one tell me what the following means:

And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view.

*****
Is the above saying that it is wrong view to believe that there are no enlightened people?

Thanks!

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Re: A little help: Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:55 pm

8fold wrote:Is the above saying that it is wrong view to believe that there are no enlightened people?

Sure...

Here are some previous discussions on this Sutta. The talks that I gave links to in the third link below are worth listening to.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1814
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 341#p16848
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1255

Mike

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Re: A little help: Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

Postby jcsuperstar » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:13 am

8fold wrote:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html

I'm trying to read this sutta. From the six paragraph, can some one tell me what the following means:

And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view.

*****
Is the above saying that it is wrong view to believe that there are no enlightened people?

Thanks!

yes and more, that there its WV to thinks there is no kamma and fruits of kamma, that nihilism is WV, etc
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: A little help: Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:15 am

Greetings JC,

jcsuperstar wrote:yes and more, that there its WV to thinks there is no kamma and fruits of kamma, that nihilism is WV, etc

What exactly do you mean by nihilism? Can you find a Pali term which corresponds to this English word, just so we can be sure we're all on the same page about what is being said.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: A little help: Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

Postby jcsuperstar » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:26 am

natthikaditthi
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: A little help: Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:49 am

Greetings JC,

jcsuperstar wrote:natthikaditthi

Cool... I suspected you either meant ucchedaditthi or natthikaditthi.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: A little help: Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:38 am

Hmm, the difference between these views, as described here: http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... htm#ditthi is rather subtle.
Ditthi: lit. 'sight'; Verbal root: dis to see: view, belief, speculative opinion, insight. If not qualified by sammā 'right', it mostly refers to wrong and evil view or opinion, and only in a few instances to right view, understanding or insight e.g. ditthi-ppatta, ditthi-visuddhi purification of insight; ditthi-sampanna possessed of insight.
...
Annihilation-belief uccheda-ditthi ... is the belief in the existence of an ego-entity or personality as being more or less identical with those physical and mental processes, and which therefore, at the dissolution at death, will come to be annihilated. - For the 20 kinds of personality-belief, see sakkāya-ditthi
...
Nihilism natthi-kaditthi ... Was taught by Ajita-Kesakambali, a ... contemporary of the Buddha who asserted that any belief in good action and its reward is a mere confusion, that after death no further life would follow, that man at death would become dissolved into the elements, etc.

Presumably the difference is that one could have Nihilism (natthi-kaditthi) without personality view.

In any case, that's a good place to read about all kinds of wrong views...

Mike

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Re: A little help: Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:52 am

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:Presumably the difference is that one could have Nihilism (natthi-kaditthi) without personality view.

Yes, that's my take on it too.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

8fold
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Re: A little help: Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

Postby 8fold » Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:10 pm

Thank you, everybody. It'll take me some time to read through the links, but thanks.

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Re: A little help: Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

Postby Sunrise » Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:57 pm

One more thing, the translation says next world here, which is best taken as other worlds.

Paraloka would mean other worlds rather than next world.

Para - Others

Loka - worlds


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