What is puthujjano?

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What is puthujjano?

Postby Element » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:11 am

Dear Classical Forum,

At the end of MN 22, Buddha lists his disciples, namely, faith followers, dhamma followers, stream enterers, once returners, non returners & arahants.

Is puthujjano a non-disciple or non-enlightened?

Do faith followers and dhamma followers remain puthujjano?

Thank you

Element
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Re: What is puthujjano?

Postby Ben » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:54 am

Hi Element,

If you have access to Gombrich's How Buddhism Began, I think he talks about the different classes of disciples in the essay: Retracing an ancient Debate: How insight worsted concentration. Unfortunately, my copy is in a shipping container on route to my new home. It should answer that part of your question relating to how faith followers et al correspond with the four classes of ariyan attainment.
Metta

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Re: What is puthujjano?

Postby appicchato » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:56 am

Element wrote:Dear Classical Forum,

At the end of MN 22, Buddha lists his disciples, namely, faith followers, dhamma followers, stream enterers, once returners, non returners & arahants.

Is puthujjano a non-disciple or non-enlightened?

Do faith followers and dhamma followers remain puthujjano?

Thank you

Element


Hi Element,

A puthujjana is a worldling...one who has not overcome the ten fetters, so is still bound to the cycle of birth and death...

To answer your questions, a puthujjana can be a disciple, but is unenlightened...and they will remain as such until attaining path and fruit of an ariyan...

Be well... :smile:
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Re: What is puthujjano?

Postby cooran » Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:26 am

Hello Element, all,

puthujjana - lit.: 'one of the many folk', 'worldling', ordinary man, is any layman or monk who is still possessed of all the 10 fetters (samyojana, q.v.) binding to the round of rebirths, and therefore has not yet reached any of the 4 stages of holiness (s. ariya-puggala).
"Whoso is neither freed from the 3 fetters (personality-belief, sceptical doubt, attachment to mere rule and ritual), nor is on the way to lose these 3 things, such a one is called a worlding" (Pug. 9).
According to Com. to M.9, a 'worlding' may be
(1) an outsider (a non-Buddhist) who, if he believed in moral causation, may be said to have right view to that extent; but he has not the 'knowledge conforming to the Truths' (saccānulomika-ñāna), as has
(2) the 'worldling inside the Buddha's Dispensation' (sāsanika).
A worlding who professes Buddhism, may be either
a 'blind worldling' (andha-p.) who has neither knowledge of, nor interest in the fundamental teaching (the Truths, groups, etc.);
or he is a 'noble worldling' (kalyāna-p.), who has such knowledge and earnestly strives to understand and practise the Teaching. -
See Atthasālini Tr. II, 451 (tr. by 'average man'); Com. to M.1, D.1.
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/puthujjana.htm

From Puthujjana to the Buddha
( Reference: Brahmajala Sutta)
http://www.triplegem.plus.com/ariyacht.htm

metta
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Re: What is puthujjano?

Postby Dhammanando » Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:57 am

Hi Element,

Element wrote:Is puthujjano a non-disciple or non-enlightened?


A puthujjana is certainly non-enlightened.

As to whether he is a disciple, it depends what you mean by this.
If you mean ariyasāvaka (noble disciple), then no.
If you mean saraṇagata (one who has gone to the Buddha etc. for refuge) then some puthujjanas are and some are not.

Do faith followers and dhamma followers remain puthujjano?


No, the saddhānusārī and dhammānusārī have both arrived at the path of stream-entry (sotāpatti-magga).

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
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