Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

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Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby robertk » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:32 am

From viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5155&p=79762#p79762

First we need to define Samma Samadhi:


Concentration has various meanings. When it is kusala it can
be
the type that is associated with samatha or with vipassana.

Anguttara Nikaya IV.41
Samadhi Sutta
"Monks, these are the four developments of concentration.
Which
four?
1. There is the development of concentration that, when
developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &
now. .There is the development of concentration that, when
developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge &
vision. 3.There is the development of concentration that, when
developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.4. There
is
the development of concentration that, when developed &
pursued,
leads to the ending of the effluents.

"And what is the development of concentration that, when
developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &
now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from
sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters &
remains in the first jhana:..... he enters & remains in the
fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither
pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration
that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in
the here & now.

"And what is the development of concentration that, when
developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There
is
the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise,
known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are
known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as
they
subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as
they
persist, known as they subside. This is the development of
concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to
mindfulness & alertness.
http://www.abhidhamma.org/an4-41.html


When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to
know that there are two types. The Dhammapada 371 :

"
Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless
.

The atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of
meditative absorptions"
And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of
meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and
meditative absorption that arises dependent on
characteristics"
The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506
note 6 of carter and palihawadana)
"the eight attainments
(jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating
on one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or
Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means
'insight
wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the
three characteristics'
"

Now when it says 'reflecting' this is a wide term that can
mean
pondering deeply or it can mean direct insight into the actual
characteristics and conditions of the present moment right up
to the vipassana nanas and magga and phala.
THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) says

"
to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of
ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the
mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being,
without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider
the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise
of the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the
pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that
the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the
causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way
the cessation of the agregates should be seen"
> robert




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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:41 am

A discussion of the Sujin take on things will have to show that her's is in line with the sutta and the whole of the commentarial traditiuon, not just a selective reading of them as we have seen in this thread: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... erfections
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby robertk » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:49 am

It is not uncommon for Buddhist and non-Buddhist to mistake states of concentration for an actual attainment of a higher plane of consciousness. As the Dhammasangani makes clear such factors as sukkham (mental ease) and samadhi do not neccesarily indicate anything auspicious- it may in fact be only purified lobha:

""What on that occasion is ease (sukkham) the mental pleasure, the mental ease which on that occasion is pleasant, easeful experience born of contact ...What on that occasion is ekaggatta. The stability, solidity, absorbed steadfastness of thought which on that occasion is absence of distraction, balance, unperturbed mental procedure, quiet, the faculty and the power of concentration WRONG concentration.'"------------

However, because these concentration states are much less distracting and concentrated than normal daily life they are naturally attractive and deceiving.
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:51 am

robertk wrote:It is not uncommon for Buddhist and non-Buddhist to mistake states of concentration for an actual attainment of higher a plane of consciousness. As the Dhammasangani makes clear such factors as sukkham (mental ease) and samadhi do not neccesarily indicate anything auspicious- it may in fact be only purified lobha:

""What on that occasion is ease (sukkham) the mental pleasure, the mental ease which on that occasion is pleasant, easeful experience born of contact ...What on that occasion is ekaggatta. The stability, solidity, absorbed steadfastness of thought which on that occasion is absence of distraction, balance, unperturbed mental procedure, quiet, the faculty and the power of concentration WRONG concentration.'"------------

However, because these concentration states are much less distracting and concentrated than normal daily life they are naturally attractive and deceiving.
And this has to do with what?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:53 am

robertk wrote:
First we need to define Samma Samadhi . . . .
And so does Sujin advocate sitting meditation, the cultvation of concentration and mindfulness?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby robertk » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:02 am

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:
First we need to define Samma Samadhi . . . .
And so does Sujin advocate sitting meditation, the cultvation of concentration and mindfulness?



Umm , could you cite the text that defines sitting meditation as equating with concentartion and mindfulness?
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:08 am

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:
First we need to define Samma Samadhi . . . .
And so does Sujin advocate sitting meditation, the cultvation of concentration and mindfulness?



Umm , could you cite the text that defines sitting meditation as equating with concentartion and mindfulness?
So samadhi and mindfulness just arise spontaneously, or we can think our way to mindfulness and concentration maybe my imagining that we are seeing ultimates dhammas? We do not cultivate concentration or mindfulness? Buddhaghosa got it wrong, which would mean that the commentators got it wrong and all those meditation teachers got it wrong?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:09 am

Greetings Robert,

Quite possibly not what Tilt had in mind, but if this occurs at the commencement of formal instruction in both the Satipatthana Sutta and the Anapanasati Sutta...

"There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

... then there's certainly some indication that "sitting meditation" was promoted by the Buddha as a means to cultivating mindfulness and concentration.

"Monks, there are roots of trees, there are empty houses, concentrate, do not be negligent and repent later. This is our advice to you." (Sn 42.1)

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:11 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Robert,

Quite possibly not what Tilt had in mind, but if this occurs at the commencement of formal instruction in both the Satipatthana Sutta and the Anapanasati Sutta...

"There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

... then there's certainly some indication that "sitting meditation" was promoted by the Buddha as a means to cultivating mindfulness and concentration.

"Monks, there are roots of trees, there are empty houses, concentrate, do not be negligent and repent later. This is our advice to you." (Sn 42.1)
Spot on.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby robertk » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:19 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Robert,

Quite possibly not what Tilt had in mind, but if this occurs at the commencement of formal instruction in both the Satipatthana Sutta and the Anapanasati Sutta...

"There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

... then there's certainly some indication that "sitting meditation" was promoted by the Buddha as a means to cultivating mindfulness and concentration.

Monks, there are roots of trees, there are empty houses, concentrate, do not be negligent and repent later. This is our advice to you. (Sn 42.1)

Metta,
Retro. :)

thanks Retro.
Lets go further into the satipatthana sutta (sometimes I wonder if perople only read the first section about breath).
I guess if we say that here is direct evidence that sitting meditation is equated with mindfulness and concentration then how about the part while going to the toilet: because I am yet to see someone equate defecation with samma samadhi and yet quite obviously it is as suitable a time (according to the satipatthana sutta) as any other for samma samadhi to be cultivated.


And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practising clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practising clear comprehension; in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, is a person practising clear comprehension; in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savoured, is a person practising clear comprehension; in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension; in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension."
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:35 am

robertk wrote:Lets go further into the satipatthana sutta (sometimes I wonder if perople only read the first section about breath).
I guess if we say that here is direct evidence that sitting meditation is equated with mindfulness and concentration then how about the part while going to the toilet: because I am yet to see someone equate defecation with samma samadhi and yet quite obviously it is as suitable a time (according to the satipatthana sutta) as any other for samma samadhi to be cultivated.
But the Buddha advocated that one be mindful/clear comphrehending of such a thing, and being mindful requires a degree of concentration.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby bodom » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:56 am

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:
First we need to define Samma Samadhi . . . .
And so does Sujin advocate sitting meditation, the cultvation of concentration and mindfulness?



Umm , could you cite the text that defines sitting meditation as equating with concentartion and mindfulness?


Heres a description of the fourth jhana from Samadhanga Sutta: The Factors of Concentration AN 5.28:

"Just as if a man were sitting wrapped from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating his body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness. This is the fourth development of the five-factored noble right concentration.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:57 am

bodom wrote:
Heres a description of the fourth jhana from Samadhanga Sutta: The Factors of Concentration AN 5.28:

"Just as if a man were sitting wrapped from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating his body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness. This is the fourth development of the five-factored noble right concentration.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:anjali:
Oh, no!!! Not another example of sitting practice!!!!
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby robertk » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:01 am

tiltbillings wrote:
bodom wrote:
Heres a description of the fourth jhana from Samadhanga Sutta: The Factors of Concentration AN 5.28:

"Just as if a man were sitting wrapped from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating his body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness. This is the fourth development of the five-factored noble right concentration.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:anjali:
Oh, no!!! Not another example of sitting practice!!!!


Just to clarify Tilt. Do you agree that the section I cited from the satipatthan sutta also includes Samma samadhi (urinating and defecating etc.). Or do you think those actions in the sutta are excluded from right concentration?
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:13 am

robertk wrote:
Just to clarify Tilt. Do you agree that the section I cited from the satipatthan sutta also includes Samma samadhi (urinating and defecating etc.). Or do you think those actions in the sutta are excluded from right concentration?
I have already answered that, quite clearly: But the Buddha advocated that one be mindful/clear comphrehending of such a thing, and being mindful [in this context] requires a degree of concentration.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby bodom » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:16 am

Hi RobertK

Check out Analayo's Satipatthana sutta commentary, pg 73, where he gives citations to suttas that do not mention jhana as part of right concentration.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby robertk » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:30 am

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:
Just to clarify Tilt. Do you agree that the section I cited from the satipatthan sutta also includes Samma samadhi (urinating and defecating etc.). Or do you think those actions in the sutta are excluded from right concentration?
I have already answered that, quite clearly: But the Buddha advocated that one be mindful/clear comphrehending of such a thing, and being mindful [in this context] requires a degree of concentration.


Thanks.
According to the Abhidhamma and Commentaries there is always khanika samadhi even when one is conventionally distracted. So one focusses or doesn't focus, feels bored or excited, happy or sad, khanika samadhi is there; and it is certainly there when there is sati.
So khanika samadhi (momentary concentration) is alwasy arising with akusala and kusala mindstates.

One might concentrate, while defecating, on hardness or pressure, or feeling or smell, and hope that sati is also present. However the causes for sati-sampajana to arise don't depend on focusing or trying or hoping.
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby robertk » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:34 am

bodom wrote:Hi RobertK

Check out Analayo's Satipatthana sutta commentary, pg 73, where he gives citations to suttas that do not mention jhana as part of right concentration.

:anjali:

as I don't have the said book that is hard. However, as my first posts also gave definitions where mundane jhana was explained as being one type of right concentration I don't see any conflict.
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:21 pm

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:
Just to clarify Tilt. Do you agree that the section I cited from the satipatthan sutta also includes Samma samadhi (urinating and defecating etc.). Or do you think those actions in the sutta are excluded from right concentration?
I have already answered that, quite clearly: But the Buddha advocated that one be mindful/clear comphrehending of such a thing, and being mindful [in this context] requires a degree of concentration.


Thanks.
According to the Abhidhamma and Commentaries there is always khanika samadhi even when one is conventionally distracted. So one focusses or doesn't focus, feels bored or excited, happy or sad, khanika samadhi is there; and it is certainly there when there is sati.
So khanika samadhi (momentary concentration) is alwasy arising with akusala and kusala mindstates.

One might concentrate, while defecating, on hardness or pressure, or feeling or smell, and hope that sati is also present. However the causes for sati-sampajana to arise don't depend on focusing or trying or hoping.
So, such practices as outlined by U Ba Khin and Mahasi Sayadaw are efficacious.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:59 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:Lets go further into the satipatthana sutta (sometimes I wonder if perople only read the first section about breath).
I guess if we say that here is direct evidence that sitting meditation is equated with mindfulness and concentration then how about the part while going to the toilet: because I am yet to see someone equate defecation with samma samadhi and yet quite obviously it is as suitable a time (according to the satipatthana sutta) as any other for samma samadhi to be cultivated.
But the Buddha advocated that one be mindful/clear comphrehending of such a thing, and being mindful requires a degree of concentration.

Concentration arises with every citta. With it is right or wrong depends.

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