IMO, appropriation (upadana) is a part and parcel of the five approriated aggregates, and thus inseparable from them.Spiny O'Norman wrote:Thanks for the quote. Does anyone know what this section actually means?
Dmytro
IMO, appropriation (upadana) is a part and parcel of the five approriated aggregates, and thus inseparable from them.Spiny O'Norman wrote:Thanks for the quote. Does anyone know what this section actually means?
Although this section seems to suggest that clinging / appropiation ( upadana ) arises when desire and passion are present?Dmytro wrote:Hi Spiny,
IMO, appropriation (upadana) is a part and parcel of the five approriated aggregates, and thus inseparable from them.Spiny O'Norman wrote:Thanks for the quote. Does anyone know what this section actually means?
Dmytro
Is that a reply you hold permanently in reserve Norman in case I post anything ? my point I would have thought was fairly clear, it was to thank Dymtro for HIS point..Spiny O'Norman wrote:What's your point?PeterB wrote:An important point...I am always grateful for your input Dymtro. We tend to drift into assuming that terms like "clinging" are self explanatory..forgetting that actually they have often been pressed into service by default.
Spiny
I confess I often don't understand the point you are making.PeterB wrote:Is that a reply you hold permanently in reserve Norman in case I post anything ?Spiny O'Norman wrote:What's your point?PeterB wrote:An important point...I am always grateful for your input Dymtro. We tend to drift into assuming that terms like "clinging" are self explanatory..forgetting that actually they have often been pressed into service by default.
Spiny
Communicating clearly isn't always easy on these forums.PeterB wrote:Its a problem isnt it ?
I don't find such suggestion in the section you quoted.Spiny O'Norman wrote:Although this section seems to suggest that clinging / appropiation ( upadana ) arises when desire and passion are present?
"Whatever desire & passion there is with regard to the five clinging-aggregates, that is the clinging there."
As for the Conditioned Arising in general, the important point is that 'upadana' (as any other link) may arise and cease depending on conditions, but it requires Awakening to stop these things forever. Until then they are present as tendencies. In this sense, 'upadana' (appropriation/clinging) remains part and parcel of the five appropriated aggregates."'The origination of self-identification, the origination of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which origination of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"
"The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."
"'The cessation of self-identification, the cessation of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which cessation of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"
"The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving: This, friend Visakha, is the cessation of self-identification described by the Blessed One."
I think we're in agreement on that.Dmytro wrote:As for the Conditioned Arising in general, the important point is that 'upadana' (as any other link) may arise and cease depending on conditions, but it requires Awakening to stop these things forever. Until then they are present as tendencies. In this sense, 'upadana' (appropriation/clinging) remains part and parcel of the five appropriated aggregates.
I came across this passage in SN 22 today, it seems to describe the way in which clinging to the aggregates is overcome:Dmytro wrote:As for the Conditioned Arising in general, the important point is that 'upadana' (as any other link) may arise and cease depending on conditions, but it requires Awakening to stop these things forever. Until then they are present as tendencies. In this sense, 'upadana' (appropriation/clinging) remains part and parcel of the five appropriated aggregates.
Thank you. Yamaka sutta, which you quoted, gives a detailed description of un-appropriation:Spiny O'Norman wrote:"But friend, the instructed noble disciple..does not regard form as self.
...He does not become engaged with form, cling to it, and does not take a stand on it as "my self".. ( and the same for the other 4 aggregates )
These same five aggregates of clinging, to which he does not become engaged and to which he does not cling, lead to his well-being and happiness for a long time."