A person fit to talk with?

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A person fit to talk with?

Postby Jechbi » Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:16 am

Kathavatthu Sutta: Topics for Discussion
"Monks, there are these three topics for discussion. Which three?

"One may talk about the past, saying, 'Thus it was in the past.' One may talk about the future, saying, 'Thus it will be in the future.' Or one may talk about now in the present, saying, 'Thus it is now in the present.'

"Monks, it's through his way of participating in a discussion that a person can be known as fit to talk with or unfit to talk with. If a person, when asked a question, doesn't give a categorical answer to a question deserving a categorical answer, doesn't give an analytical (qualified) answer to a question deserving an analytical answer, doesn't give a counter-question to a question deserving a counter-question, doesn't put aside a question deserving to be put aside, then — that being the case — he is a person unfit to talk with. But if a person, when asked a question, gives a categorical answer to a question deserving a categorical answer, gives an analytical answer to a question deserving an analytical answer, gives a counter-question to a question deserving a counter-question, and puts aside a question deserving to be put aside, then — that being the case — he is a person fit to talk with.

"Monks, it's through his way of participating in a discussion that a person can be known as fit to talk with or unfit to talk with. If a person, when asked a question, doesn't stand by what is possible and impossible, doesn't stand by agreed-upon assumptions, doesn't stand by teachings known to be true, doesn't stand by standard procedure, then — that being the case — he is a person unfit to talk with. But if a person, when asked a question, stands by what is possible and impossible, stands by agreed-upon assumptions, stands by teachings known to be true, stands by standard procedure, then — that being the case — he is a person fit to talk with.

"Monks, it's through his way of participating in a discussion that a person can be known as fit to talk with or unfit to talk with. If a person, when asked a question, wanders from one thing to another, pulls the discussion off the topic, shows anger & aversion and sulks, then — that being the case — he is a person unfit to talk with. But if a person, when asked a question, doesn't wander from one thing to another, doesn't pull the discussion off the topic, doesn't show anger or aversion or sulk, then — that being the case — he is a person fit to talk with.

"Monks, it's through his way of participating in a discussion that a person can be known as fit to talk with or unfit to talk with. If a person, when asked a question, puts down [the questioner], crushes him, ridicules him, grasps at his little mistakes, then — that being the case — he is a person unfit to talk with. But if a person, when asked a question, doesn't put down [the questioner], doesn't crush him, doesn't ridicule him, doesn't grasp at his little mistakes, then — that being the case — he is a person fit to talk with.

"Monks, it's through his way of participating in a discussion that a person can be known as drawing near or not drawing near. One who lends ear draws near; one who doesn't lend ear doesn't draw near. Drawing near, one clearly knows one quality, comprehends one quality, abandons one quality, and realizes one quality. Clearly knowing one quality, comprehending one quality, abandoning one quality, and realizing one quality, one touches right release. For that's the purpose of discussion, that's the purpose of counsel, that's the purpose of drawing near, that's the purpose of lending ear: i.e., the liberation of the mind through no clinging.

Those who discuss
when angered, dogmatic, arrogant,
following what's not the noble ones' way,
seeking to expose each other's faults,
delight in each other's misspoken word,
slip, stumble, defeat.
Noble ones
don't speak in that way.

If wise people, knowing the right time,
want to speak,
then, words connected with justice,
following the ways of the noble ones:
That's what the enlightened ones speak,
without anger or arrogance,
with a mind not boiling over,
without vehemence, without spite.
Without envy
they speak from right knowledge.
They would delight in what's well-said
and not disparage what's not.
They don't study to find fault,
don't grasp at little mistakes.
don't put down, don't crush,
don't speak random words.

For the purpose of knowledge,
for the purpose of [inspiring] clear confidence,
counsel that's true:
That's how noble ones give counsel,
That's the noble ones' counsel.
Knowing this, the wise
should give counsel without arrogance."

Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: A person fit to talk with?

Postby acinteyyo » Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:48 am

:goodpost:
nice sutta :anjali:
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
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Re: A person fit to talk with?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:30 am

Image
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Re: A person fit to talk with?

Postby Paññāsikhara » Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:40 am

:goodpost:

I wonder if that can be worked into, or made the framework of, the TOS?
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Re: A person fit to talk with?

Postby Annapurna » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:25 pm

I worked it into the guidelines of my forum, actually.

I find it one of the most enlightening and helpful sutthas overall, for me. I had a distinct tendency to reply cuttingly when I was(am) provoked.

So I sometimes run that program through my mind. ;)
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Re: A person fit to talk with?

Postby Kim OHara » Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:38 am

Paññāsikhara wrote:I wonder if that can be worked into, or made the framework of, the TOS?

Good thought, Pannasikhara :smile:
I, for one, would be perfectly happy with it here.
I hope that I can live up to its ideals, and I am sure that discussions here would be even better if we all tried to do so. (That phrase, 'even better', is there because I think we actually do very well already, with a little help from our moderators.)

:namaste:
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Re: A person fit to talk with?

Postby BlackBird » Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:08 am

Paññāsikhara wrote::goodpost:

I wonder if that can be worked into, or made the framework of, the TOS?


Well, there goes the Dhammic free for all... Tongue firmly in cheek :)

metta
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'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: A person fit to talk with?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:39 am

BlackBird wrote:
Paññāsikhara wrote::goodpost:

I wonder if that can be worked into, or made the framework of, the TOS?


Well, there goes the Dhammic free for all... Tongue firmly in cheek

metta
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This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: A person fit to talk with?

Postby Ben » Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:43 am

Hi Venerable

Paññāsikhara wrote::goodpost:

I wonder if that can be worked into, or made the framework of, the TOS?


One of the great things about Dhamma Wheel is that the vast majority of our members self-moderate and when we do have someone who becomes a difficulty, some of our members will take that person to task regarding their online communication style. Sort of 'moderation by peer intervention' if you will.
While the Kathavatthu Sutta isnt explicitly referenced in our TOS, its spirit is very much apart of DW culture. It indicates to me that our members feel a degree of shared responsibilty for Dhamma Wheel which is something that I like.
metta

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Re: A person fit to talk with?

Postby Chula » Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:22 pm

great sutta! I was reminded of Abhayarājakumāra Sutta (MN 58) while I was reading this..

In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."
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