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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:25 am
by Kumara
Sylvester wrote:I was just curious if instead of the idiomatic "stillness", you would have tolerated "one-placedness".
Why not? We've tolerated with an equally un-English "onepointedness" for decades.

Besides, I do have a little hypothesis about "one-placedness". Clumsy as it may appear in English, it may carry a profound literal meaning. It is reflected in the Chinese translation for cittekaggatā: 心一境性 (lit. mind-one-based-ness)。Although this meaning can be related to an experience in a slightly advanced level of satipaṭṭhāna practice, and the experience is spoken of by meditation masters, I have not found sufficient evidence in the Suttas to back it up yet. So, it remains a hypothesis, which I discuss in an appendix in my book.

I do apologise to the initiator of the topic for deviating, though I see ekaggatā as closely related. Perhaps we shall stop here, Sylvester, at least for ekaggatā.

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:43 am
by tiltbillings
Kumara wrote:
I do apologise to the initiator of the topic for deviating,
No need, bhante, to apologize. The discussion you are having here with Sylvester is on point.

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:16 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings bhante,
Kumara wrote:I do apologise to the initiator of the topic for deviating, though I see ekaggatā as closely related. Perhaps we shall stop here, Sylvester, at least for ekaggatā.
As the originator of the topic, you have my explicit permission to take it in whatever direction you find would be most profitable.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:36 am
by Assaji
Bhante Kumara,
Kumara wrote:Besides, I do have a little hypothesis about "one-placedness". Clumsy as it may appear in English, it may carry a profound literal meaning. It is reflected in the Chinese translation for cittekaggatā: 心一境性 (lit. mind-one-based-ness)。Although this meaning can be related to an experience in a slightly advanced level of satipaṭṭhāna practice, and the experience is spoken of by meditation masters, I have not found sufficient evidence in the Suttas to back it up yet. So, it remains a hypothesis, which I discuss in an appendix in my book.
This accords very well with the Atthakatha - one base (ārammaṇa) is predominant (agga) in the mind (citta).

:anjali:

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:42 am
by Sylvester
Kumara wrote: Besides, I do have a little hypothesis about "one-placedness". Clumsy as it may appear in English, it may carry a profound literal meaning. It is reflected in the Chinese translation for cittekaggatā: 心一境性 (lit. mind-one-based-ness)。Although this meaning can be related to an experience in a slightly advanced level of satipaṭṭhāna practice, and the experience is spoken of by meditation masters, I have not found sufficient evidence in the Suttas to back it up yet. So, it remains a hypothesis, which I discuss in an appendix in my book.

Hi Bhante

The point above about 心一境性 being possibly related to satipaṭṭhāna is quite exciting. I've located some occurence of citta + ekagga which might point to such a connection here -

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p204237" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

By the way, is the said Chinese phrase from an Agama sutra?

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:22 pm
by Mr Man
Hi Bhante
agara (from this discussion) makes me think of words abode & abide.

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:42 am
by Kumara
Dmytro wrote:Bhante Kumara,
Kumara wrote:Besides, I do have a little hypothesis about "one-placedness". Clumsy as it may appear in English, it may carry a profound literal meaning. It is reflected in the Chinese translation for cittekaggatā: 心一境性 (lit. mind-one-based-ness)。Although this meaning can be related to an experience in a slightly advanced level of satipaṭṭhāna practice, and the experience is spoken of by meditation masters, I have not found sufficient evidence in the Suttas to back it up yet. So, it remains a hypothesis, which I discuss in an appendix in my book.
This accords very well with the Atthakatha - one base (ārammaṇa) is predominant (agga) in the mind (citta).
I don't mean that actually. I was referring to a unified knowing: to be aware of all sense bases at the same time. This is done by not having the attention “go” to any of the sense bases, but stepping back to settle into the knowing or cognising, where all sense impressions happen. I have this in my book as an appendix titled "A Hypothesis on Ekaggatā":
As Ajahn Chah taught (in The Path to Peace), “The pure mind is the mind without attachment. It… is in a state of continuous knowing and wakefulness—thoroughly mindful of all it is experiencing.” (Italics here and in the quotes below are mine.) Other instances: (in Our Real Home) “Don’t take hold of anything at all, just stay with this unified awareness.” (In Food for the Heart) “Simply be the ‘one who knows’, knowing without fixation, knowing and letting things be their natural way.” Sayadaw U Tejaniya, the most prominent student of Shwe Oo Min Sayadaw, also teaches his students very much the same thing. He gradually guides them to come to be familiar with this knowing mind that knows whatever arises at all sense doors.
Nonetheless, at this point, connecting the term with this is just a hypothesis. The experience is real though. One can look at all the sense based through this one knowing, and see them all as not-self. When this happens, one can understand that this person is really just the 6 sense bases, which is also one's entire world. The anattasaññā becomes very strong.

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:23 am
by Kumara
Sylvester wrote:The point above about 心一境性 being possibly related to satipaṭṭhāna is quite exciting. I've located some occurence of citta + ekagga which might point to such a connection here -

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p204237" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I was quite excited too when I discovered this. You can clearly see ekaggacitta among the Buddha's description of satipaṭṭhāna practice in SN47:4. (In CDB, it's rendered as "one-pointed mind", which makes it quite meaningless.) The jhānas of the Suttas aren't separate from satipaṭṭhāna. They are results of it.

[DELETED. Pending further examination.]
Sylvester wrote:By the way, is the said Chinese phrase from an Agama sutra?
Yes, that's the standard translation for cittekaggatā (cittassa ekaggatā, cittassekaggatā).

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:44 pm
by Assaji
Bhante,
Kumara wrote:I was referring to a unified knowing: to be aware of all sense bases at the same time. This is done by not having the attention “go” to any of the sense bases, but stepping back to settle into the knowing or cognising, where all sense impressions happen.
There's a name for this - animitta cetosamadhi.

See also "appaṇidhāya bhāvanā", as described in Bhikkhunupassaya sutta.
Kumara wrote:The experience is real though. One can look at all the sense based through this one knowing, and see them all as not-self. When this happens, one can understand that this person is really just the 6 sense bases, which is also one's entire world. The anattasaññā becomes very strong.
"Animitta", "appaṇihita" and "suññata" are quite close to each other.

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:50 pm
by Buckwheat
Composure seems like a good, usable word. I'm realizing that anything over three syllables, while fine for academics, seems too academic or like technical jargon to convey a meaning that goes straight to the "citta". With that in mind, I also suggest "poise"...
poise [poiz] noun, verb, poised, pois·ing.

noun
1. a state of balance or equilibrium, as from equality or equal distribution of weight; equipoise.
2. a dignified, self-confident manner or bearing; composure; self-possession: to show poise in company.
3. steadiness; stability: intellectual poise.
4. suspense or wavering, as between rest and motion or two phases of motion: the poise of the tides.
5. the way of being poised, held, or carried.

verb (used with object)
7. to adjust, hold, or carry in equilibrium; balance evenly.
8. to hold supported or raised, as in position for casting, using, etc.: to poise a spear.
9. to hold or carry in a particular manner: She walked, carefully poising a water jug on her head.
10. Obsolete . to weigh.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ ... =(organic)
...or "grace"
grace [greys] noun, verb, graced, grac·ing.
noun
1. elegance or beauty of form, manner, motion, or action: We watched her skate with effortless grace across the ice. Synonyms: attractiveness, charm, gracefulness, comeliness, ease, lissomeness, fluidity. Antonyms: stiffness, ugliness, awkwardness, clumsiness; klutziness.
2. a pleasing or attractive quality or endowment: He lacked the manly graces.
3. favor or goodwill. Synonyms: kindness, kindliness, love, benignity; condescension.
4. a manifestation of favor, especially by a superior: It was only through the dean's grace that I wasn't expelled from school. Synonyms: forgiveness, charity, mercifulness. Antonyms: animosity, enmity, disfavor.
5. mercy; clemency; pardon: He was saved by an act of grace from the governor. Synonyms: lenity, leniency, reprieve. Antonyms: harshness.
verb (used with object)
14. to lend or add grace to; adorn: Many fine paintings graced the rooms of the house. Synonyms: embellish, beautify, deck, decorate, ornament; enhance, honor. Antonyms: disfigure, desecrate, demean.
15. to favor or honor: to grace an occasion with one's presence. Synonyms: glorify, elevate, exalt. Antonyms: disrespect, dishonor.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ ... =(organic)
Any opinions on the validity/usefulness of these terms?

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:18 pm
by Polar Bear
The only problem with words like composure and poise is that the words don't carry any connotation that suggests one is meditating or in a deep meditative state and since samma samadhi is jhana it would be nice to have an english word that carries this connotation, but I don't think there really is any. I think composure is a bit better than poise though because poise sounds too much like a quality of social elegance to me, or alternatively it sounds more aristocratic in character than the term composure. But anyway, different strokes for different folks.

Grace sounds like it's coming straight out of the new testament or straight out of the ballet so I wouldn't personally ever use that word as a synonym for samadhi.

In the end, I think it would be better if one was just aware of the variety of english translations of samadhi but that one should just adopt the word samadhi into their own lingo. I think terms like dukkha are also best left untranslated since they lose a lot of meaning once you apply a single english term to be its equivalent.

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:26 pm
by convivium
stop and look

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:24 am
by Buckwheat
convivium wrote:stop and look
Haha, that is my favorite :thumbsup:

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:27 am
by Buckwheat
polarbuddha101 wrote:Grace sounds like it's coming straight out of the new testament or straight out of the ballet so I wouldn't personally ever use that word as a synonym for samadhi.
When I was looking for a dog, I fell in love with one at the pound and she happened to be named Gracie. I didn't like it at first and planned to change it, but she already knew her name so it was too late. Now I love it, but it did take a while to grow on me. Some people hear the word Grace and think of the bible, I think of my dog rolling in a cow patty (one of her favorite past-times - she doesn't actually do it often, but when she does, she seems to love it... but she hates the bath afterwards.)

I should add: I don't have a problem with keeping the term Samadhi in my head, but when I'm in causal conversation with a friend, I don't want to bust out the Pali and then end up giving a language lesson. I want to slip the dhamma in there with stealth :tongue: A more serious consideration is just keeping the conversation flowing so that we convey ideas instead of going off on tangents.

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:35 am
by Polar Bear
Buckwheat wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:Grace sounds like it's coming straight out of the new testament or straight out of the ballet so I wouldn't personally ever use that word as a synonym for samadhi.
When I was looking for a dog, I fell in love with one at the pound and she happened to be named Gracie. I didn't like it at first and planned to change it, but she already knew her name so it was too late. Now I love it, but it did take a while to grow on me. Some people hear the word Grace and think of the bible, I think of my dog rolling in a cow patty (one of her favorite past-times - she doesn't actually do it often, but when she does, she seems to love it... but she hates the bath afterwards.)

I should add: I don't have a problem with keeping the term Samadhi in my head, but when I'm in causal conversation with a friend, I don't want to bust out the Pali and then end up giving a language lesson. I want to slip the dhamma in there with stealth :tongue: A more serious consideration is just keeping the conversation flowing so that we convey ideas instead of going off on tangents.
That makes sense. Sounds like a cool dog you got there. I guess I wonder though how many people would understand what you meant by grace if you didn't explain it to them, or is grace just a personal term you think of when thinking about samadhi?