Pali Term: Nirodha

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

Pali Term: Nirodha

Postby Buckwheat » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:03 pm

Thought I'd start another thread for another word. I like these little threads where individual words are analyzed.

I'm leaning toward using "fulfillment" for nirodha.

Meriam-Webster wrote:ful·fill
2 a : to put into effect : execute
b : to meet the requirements of (a business order)
c : to bring to an end
d : to measure up to : satisfy

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fulfilling


I especially like (c) and (d) as they relate to the dhamma. Anybody see anything wrong with this word? What are some of your personal favorite translations?
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
Buckwheat
 
Posts: 929
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:39 am
Location: California USA

Re: Pali Term: Nirodha

Postby Zom » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:14 pm

Cessation is its meaning.

SN 22.21:

Then the Venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, sat down to one side, and said to him:
“Venerable sir, it is said, ‘cessation, cessation (nirodha).’ Through the cessation of what things is cessation spoken of?”
“Form, Ananda, is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, to vanishing, to fading away, to cessation.
Through its cessation, cessation is spoken of.

“Feeling is impermanent … Perception is impermanent … Volitional constructions are impermanent … … Consciousness is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, to vanishing, to fading away, to cessation. Through its cessation, cessation is spoken of.

“It is through the cessation of these things, Ananda, that cessation is spoken of.”
User avatar
Zom
 
Posts: 824
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg

Re: Pali Term: Nirodha

Postby Cafael Dust » Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:39 pm

Expiration? I don't think it's better but it's another reflection.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.
Cafael Dust
 
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:55 pm

Re: Pali Term: Nirodha

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:37 am

Greetings,

I like cessation so long as it isn't loaded with realist overtones.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14672
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Pali Term: Nirodha

Postby Buckwheat » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:46 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

I like cessation so long as it isn't loaded with realist overtones.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Can you expand on "realist overtones"?

Thanks,
Scott
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
Buckwheat
 
Posts: 929
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:39 am
Location: California USA

Re: Pali Term: Nirodha

Postby Cafael Dust » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:00 pm

I always told myself I had no need to learn Pali, but I find myself absorbed all this day, with some of the effort I usually put into poetry, in referencing etymologies of the Pali terms used in the sutta extract Zom quoted. Of course I don't think what I've written is a translation, it's just that I've spent the day on it, and it's here.

Basically I've tried to make the language less formal and latinate/cold, and more heartfelt. Which obviously obscures the technical aspects, while emphasising the poetic. From what I can make out, Pali doesn't have so much of a contrast between technical and poetic language as English, therefore it's possible that any single wording of the suttas in English will lack one of the strengths of the original.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Then the contemplative Ananda paid homage to the Blessed One, sat at his side, and said:
“Venerable, you speak of 'yielding’. What must yield?”

“Form, Ananda, is fleeting, oppressed, arisen in bondage, fragile, given to passing, to unbinding, to yielding.
Form must yield...

“Feeling is fleeting… seeing is fleeting… the fruits of will are fleeting… …
knowing is fleeting, oppressed, arisen in bondage, fragile, given to passing, to unbinding, to yielding
All of these must yield."

saññā-vedayita-nirodha - to yield (in the sense of surrender and release) seeing (in the sense of recognition) and feeling
Tanha-nirodha - to yield one's desire
Avijja-nirodha - to yield one's ignorance
Dukkha-nirodha - to yield one's suffering
Last edited by Cafael Dust on Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:07 am, edited 10 times in total.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.
Cafael Dust
 
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:55 pm

Re: Pali Term: Nirodha

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:28 pm

Greetings Scott,

Buckwheat wrote:Can you expand on "realist overtones"?

That which "ceases" should be regarded as phenomena, rather than noumena.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14672
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Pali Term: Nirodha

Postby Dmytro » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:48 am

Hi,

Margeret Cone's dictionary explains:

nirodha, 1. ceasing, cessation; the being no more; stopping, shutting of. ... 2. (for sannavedayitanirodha) the cessation of conception and feeling ...



The varieties of nirodha (cessation) are explained in Nettippakarana:

‘‘Nirodho’’ti ekattatā. Tattha katamo nirodho? Paṭisaṅkhānirodho appaṭisaṅkhānirodho anunayanirodho paṭighanirodho mānanirodho makkhanirodho paḷāsanirodho issānirodho macchariyanirodho sabbakilesanirodho. Ayaṃ vemattatā.

Nettippakarana 72

Metta, Dmytro
User avatar
Dmytro
 
Posts: 1161
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: Pali Term: Nirodha

Postby Cafael Dust » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:31 pm

I got interested in the etymology of the word, which seems to support interpretations of backing down and letting go, which would allow a poetic usage of the word 'yielding', if not a direct translation. I did quite a lot of checking and actually have a post of references already written, though being utterly unqualified I already feel a little presumptious in posting my rewording of the sutta, so I'll only continue babbling if anyone is interested.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.
Cafael Dust
 
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:55 pm

Re: Pali Term: Nirodha

Postby Buckwheat » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:04 pm

Dmytro wrote:Margeret Cone's dictionary explains:

nirodha, 1. ceasing, cessation; the being no more; stopping, shutting of. ... 2. (for sannavedayitanirodha) the cessation of conception and feeling ...

Ajahn Sumedho in 'The Four Noble Truths' wrote:Usually we equate suffering with feeling, but feeling is not suffering. It is the grasping of desire that is suffering. Desire does not cause suffering; the cause of suffering is the grasping of desire. This statement is for reflection and contemplation in terms of your individual experience.

Dmytro wrote:The varieties of nirodha (cessation) are explained in Nettippakarana:

‘‘Nirodho’’ti ekattatā. Tattha katamo nirodho? Paṭisaṅkhānirodho appaṭisaṅkhānirodho anunayanirodho paṭighanirodho mānanirodho makkhanirodho paḷāsanirodho issānirodho macchariyanirodho sabbakilesanirodho. Ayaṃ vemattatā.

Nettippakarana 72

Do you have this in English?

Here is some out loud thinking: Nirodha is the cessation of the 12 links of dependent origination including ignorance, clinging, and suffering. What is left after such cessation? The bliss of nirvana, the unconditioned, the deathless, accompanied by a sense of fulfillment, of the task being done, the knowledge "released".
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
Buckwheat
 
Posts: 929
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:39 am
Location: California USA

Re: Pali Term: Nirodha

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:27 pm

Nir = Non
Udaya = arising

..as opposed to 'udaya-vaya' = arising-ceasing.

Everything arises and passes away (ceases), but non-arising is something special. It is the manifestation of the unconditioned - nibbana.

With metta
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
rowyourboat
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Pali Term: Nirodha

Postby piotr » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:34 pm

Hi,

Buckwheat wrote:Do you have this in English?


Here's translation by Bhikkhu Ñāṇamoli:

    429. 'Cessation' is a unity. Herein, what is cessation? It is deliberate cessation, undeliberate cessation[1], cessation of approval, cessation of resistance; cessation of conceit, cessation of contempt, cessation of domineering, cessation of envy, cessation of avarice, cessation of all defilements. This is a diversity.

    [1] 'Paṭisankhā-nirodha—deliberate cessation' and 'appaṭisankhānirodha—undeliberate cessation': neither compound is in PED and latter not in CPD (Vol. 1); see Kv. 226 and Kv. trsln. ('Points of Controversy') 137, note; also Miln. (cf. also Pe 151, line 15 nirodhasaṃpatti(m) appaṭisankhāya). NettiA says 'Paṭisankhānirodha is cessation due to deliberating (patisankhāya), due to keeping in being opposition (to arising—paṭipakkhabhāvanāya); or when opposition has not occurred in that way, it is the non-arising of what is ready to arise, owing to opposition to its arising being already in existence. Appaṭisankhānirodha is the cessation of determined ideas along with their individual natures: what is meant is cessation from moment to moment' (p. 109). That these two terms should be present here and absent from the Pe is noteworthy. The second, according to NettiA, means the cessation incessantly taking place in the process of impermanence. Cf. KvA (Burm. ed., p. 140) and KvAA (Burm. ed., p. 56). There seems no reason for supposing that the later independent Sanskrit Mahāyāna development of these terms is in any way implied here (for which see, e.g., O. Rosenberg, Die Probleme der Buddhistischen Philosophie, Heidelberg, 1924, p. 128; E. Obermiller, The Doctrine of Prajñāpāramitā, Leningrad, 1932; and E. Lamotte, Histoire du Bouddhisme Indien, Louvain, 1958, p. 675).
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
User avatar
piotr
 
Posts: 371
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:33 pm
Location: Khettadesa

Re: Pali Term: Nirodha

Postby Cafael Dust » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:38 pm

Ok well, since the discussion is continuing, here goes...

Rodha

http://books.google.it/books?id=dHWHmHn ... li&f=false

Source: A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera, Concise Pali-English and English-Pali Dictionary [available as digital version from Metta Net, Sri Lanka]
Description:
rodha : [m.] obstruction; prevention.

Source: Pali-English Dictionary, TW Rhys Davids, William Stede,
Description:
Rodha1 [fr. rudh] obstruction, stopping, in cpd. para- pāṇa˚ stopping the life of somebody else; life -- slaughter, murder Sn 220; J ii.450. Cp. anu˚, ni˚, vi˚.

Source: Pali-English Dictionary, TW Rhys Davids, William Stede,
Description:
Rodha2 (nt.) [fr. rudh] bank, dam A iii.128 (where id. p. at A. i.154 reads gedha, cave; v. l. also gedha, cp. v. l. rodhi˚ for gedhi˚ at Nd2 585).


Ni/Nir

B. Meanings. 1. ni (with secondary derivations like nīca "low") is a verb -- pref. only, i. e. it characterises action with respect to its direction, which is that of (a) a downward motion (opp. abhi & ud); (b) often implying the aim (=down into, on to, cp. Lat. sub in subire, or pref. ad˚); or (c) the reverting of an upward motion=back (identical with b); e. g. (a) ni -- dhā (put down), ˚kkhip (throw d.), ˚guh (hide d.), ˚ci (heap up), ˚pad (fall d.), ˚sad (sit d.); (b) ni -- ratta (at -- tached to), ˚mant (speak to); ˚yuj (ap -- point), ˚ved (ad -- dress), ˚sev (be devoted to) etc.; (c) ni -- vatt (turn back). -- 2. nis (a) as verb -- pref. it denotes the directional "out" with further development to "away from, opposite, without," pointing out the finishing, completion or vanishing of an action & through the latter idea often assuming the meaning of the reverse, disappearance or contrary of an action="un" (Lat. dis -- ), e. g. nikkhamati (to go out from) opp. pavisati (to enter into), ˚ccharati (nis to car to go forth), ˚ddhamati (throw out), ˚pajjati (result from), ˚bbattati (vatt spring out from), nīharati (take out), nirodhati (break up, destroy). -- (b) as nounpref. it denotes "being without" or "not having"= E. -- less, e. g. niccola without clothes, ˚ttaṇha (without thirst), ˚ppurisa (without a man), ˚pphala (without fruit); niccala motion -- less, ˚kkaruṇa (heartless), ˚ddosa (fault˚), ˚maŋsa (flesh˚), ˚saŋsaya (doubt˚) nirattha (useless), ˚bbhaya (fear˚). -- Bdhgh evidently takes ni -- in meaning of nis only, when defining: ni -- saddo abhāvaŋ dīpeti Vism 495.


http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... :2883.pali

So in context of the above quote:

yielding, as a dam or the banks of a river yield (ni, out) (rudha, riverbanks... receding banks?) as an obstruction yields (ni, without) (rodha, obstruction), as a person obstructing yields (ni, vanishing action) (rodha, obstruction), as a person backs down and yields from an attempt to ascend (ni, reverting of an upwards motion/vanishing of an action) (rudha, banks, denoting a confined path of action), yields possessions (ni, being without, not having) (rodha obstruction).

Also connotations of release and freedom (ni, out), leaving confinement (rudha, banks/dam), and fruition e.g. the cage yielded a flock of birds.

I'm not looking at definitions here so much as making very speculative guesses as to the possible resonance of the word when used in certain contexts, as no translation effort will find an equivalent for all contexts. English words have all sorts of resonances which we are not always aware of, which makes the art of translation an art, not a science.

Translators from all sorts of languages to English have a tendency to use formal, technical sounding latinate vocabulary as general equivalents of words in other languages, since the more complex resonances of Anglo-Saxon derived words are ideosyncratic and, essentially, will make the text their own, which a careful scribe may wish to avoid in order to preserve technical correctness. However, as an exercise, reimagining a text may be worthwhile.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.
Cafael Dust
 
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:55 pm

Re: Pali Term: Nirodha

Postby Dmytro » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:29 am

Hi,

Cafael Dust wrote:However, as an exercise, reimagining a text may be worthwhile.


Well, much of the modern liberal Buddhism is about exercising the imagination, since hardly anyone really understands the ancient texts.

Best wishes, Dmytro
User avatar
Dmytro
 
Posts: 1161
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: Pali Term: Nirodha

Postby Dmytro » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:33 am

Thank you, Piotr, for translation.
User avatar
Dmytro
 
Posts: 1161
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: Pali Term: Nirodha

Postby daverupa » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:53 am

Dmytro wrote:hardly anyone really understands the ancient texts


Oh?

Well, off topic actually... unless of course, this is a claim that these posts of yours are among the allegedly über-rare cases of 'correct', in which case that would be somewhat germane to explore...
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4163
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Pali Term: Nirodha

Postby Dmytro » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:26 pm

I'm not going to reply to personal remarks in the Pali terms threads.
User avatar
Dmytro
 
Posts: 1161
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: Pali Term: Nirodha

Postby SamKR » Mon May 27, 2013 2:56 am

rowyourboat wrote:Nir = Non
Udaya = arising

..as opposed to 'udaya-vaya' = arising-ceasing.

Everything arises and passes away (ceases), but non-arising is something special.

With metta

I also like to translate nirodha as non-arising, or perhaps more accurately "non-rearising".
yam kiñci samudayadhammam sabbam tam nirodhadhammam

Whatever is of coarising-nature is all of non-rearising-nature. In other words, whatever coarises all passes away to never arise again. :thinking:
Last edited by SamKR on Tue May 28, 2013 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SamKR
 
Posts: 764
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:33 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: Pali Term: Nirodha

Postby Nyana » Mon May 27, 2013 4:40 am

piotr wrote:
    [1] 'Paṭisankhā-nirodha—deliberate cessation' and 'appaṭisankhānirodha—undeliberate cessation': neither compound is in PED and latter not in CPD (Vol. 1); see Kv. 226 and Kv. trsln. ('Points of Controversy') 137, note; also Miln. (cf. also Pe 151, line 15 nirodhasaṃpatti(m) appaṭisankhāya). NettiA says 'Paṭisankhānirodha is cessation due to deliberating (patisankhāya), due to keeping in being opposition (to arising—paṭipakkhabhāvanāya); or when opposition has not occurred in that way, it is the non-arising of what is ready to arise, owing to opposition to its arising being already in existence. Appaṭisankhānirodha is the cessation of determined ideas along with their individual natures: what is meant is cessation from moment to moment' (p. 109). That these two terms should be present here and absent from the Pe is noteworthy. The second, according to NettiA, means the cessation incessantly taking place in the process of impermanence. Cf. KvA (Burm. ed., p. 140) and KvAA (Burm. ed., p. 56). There seems no reason for supposing that the later independent Sanskrit Mahāyāna development of these terms is in any way implied here (for which see, e.g., O. Rosenberg, Die Probleme der Buddhistischen Philosophie, Heidelberg, 1924, p. 128; E. Obermiller, The Doctrine of Prajñāpāramitā, Leningrad, 1932; and E. Lamotte, Histoire du Bouddhisme Indien, Louvain, 1958, p. 675).

Pratisaṃkhyānirodha and apratisaṃkhyānirodha are given in both the Dharmaskandha-śāstra and the Prakaraṇapāda-śāstra of the Sarvāstivāda Abhidharmapiṭaka, and therefore predate any Sanskrit Mahāyāna development by a number of centuries.

The textual history of the Nettipakaraṇa is a matter of speculation, but it and the Peṭakopadesa may have been composed or influenced by exegetical traditions other than those who composed and redacted the texts in the Pāli Abhidhammapiṭaka as we now have them.
Nyana
 
Posts: 2227
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am


Return to Pali

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests