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Pali training rules
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:19 pm
by Caraka
According to Wiki (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Precepts) the 5. Precept is:
I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented drink that causes heedlessness.
Surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi. (The Pali can be found, for instance, in Elgiriye Indaratana (2002), p. 2.)
The Wiki states:
In the fifth precept sura, meraya and majja are kinds of alcoholic beverages. In some modern translations, Surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā, is rendered more broadly, variously, as, intoxicants, liquor and drugs, etc.
I.e. The Wiki says the 5. Percept does not say anything about drugs as intoxicants. Is this true according to what has been discussed in this section (forum)?
Re: Pali training rules
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:28 pm
by DNS
heedlessness : (m.) pamāda. (f.) anavadhānatā; asamekkhakāritā.
Drugs cause heedlessness so it is safe to say the precept includes drugs. Most street drugs today were not around at that time and fermented drinks were the more common intoxicant.
Re: Pali training rules
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:35 pm
by lament
David N. Snyder wrote:Most street drugs today were not around at that time and fermented drinks were the more common intoxicant.
Is it a reasonable assumption that marijuana was so uncommon as to not be worth mentioning in the precept? According to Wikipedia, it's been in use for Hindu rites since 1000 BC, and legally used for religious purposes today.
Re: Pali training rules
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:38 pm
by David2
Well, majja (from the root mad) just means intoxicant.
I'm pretty sure that even at the time when the Buddha was living there were more intoxicants than just alcohol. So, the Buddha first mentioned the two most common intoxicants, liquor and fermented liquor, and than he concluded in general: majja, (all) intoxicants that make one heedless.
Re: Pali training rules
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:15 am
by Caraka
Well, majja (from the root mad) just means intoxicant.
Thanks. Any references you can share that makes this more than your opinion?
As for the record. My question was not about the Buddhas meaning with this Precept, or looking for a 'leagal' way to be stoned without breaking the Precept, but more the translation of the Pali:)
Re: Pali training rules
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:32 am
by David2
Thanks. Any references you can share that makes this more than your opinion?
First entry of "majja" in the Pali-English dictionary by T.W. Rhys Davids is "intoxicant".
Re: Pali training rules
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:45 am
by Cittasanto
here is a word for word of the particular part of the 5th precept
Surāmerayamajjapamādṭṭhānā
Surāmeraya – rum & spirits.
Surā - intoxicating liquor.
meraya - fermented liquor.
Majjapa - one drinks, strong drinks.
Majja - an intoxicant.
Pamāda - negligence; indolence; remissness; carelessness.
Māda - pride; intoxication; conceit; sexual excess.
ṭhānā - place; locality; condition; reason; office; cause;
Re: Pali training rules
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:10 am
by Caraka
Great, thanks:)
Wiki still say: In the fifth precept sura, meraya and majja are kinds of alcoholic beverages.
Re: Pali training rules
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:05 am
by Caraka
I agree with Wiki, its text is about refrain from alcohol or carelessness from alcohol. This translation seems also to be supported by other different Buddhist traditions. E.g. the Chinese Mahayana texts just say 'Do not drink alcohol'. And I think the 5 Precept should not be generalised for the good intentions of translator, it should be left to the reader to investigate what the Precepts means for the individual.
Thanks for helping me out in this, all of you.
Re: Pali training rules
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:41 pm
by Cittasanto
Caraka wrote:I agree with Wiki, its text is about refrain from alcohol or carelessness from alcohol. This translation seems also to be supported by other different Buddhist traditions. E.g. the Chinese Mahayana texts just say 'Do not drink alcohol'. And I think the 5 Precept should not be generalised for the good intentions of translator, it should be left to the reader to investigate what the Precepts means for the individual.
Thanks for helping me out in this, all of you.
this is where the great standard comes in!
Mahāpadesa - The Great Reasons - VinMv.6.40.1 (Vin1.6.40.1) wrote:Now at that time uncertainty arose in the sāmaṇas with regard to several things: "What does the fortunate one allow? What is not allowed?" So they relayed the issue to the fortunate One:
(The Buddha) "Meditators, whatever I have not forbidden, saying, 'This is not a proper thing for you to do,' if it fits in with what is not a proper thing for you to do, if it goes against what is a proper thing, then, this too is not a proper thing for you to do.
"Whatever I have not forbidden, saying, 'This is not a proper thing for you to do,' if it fits in with what is a proper thing for you to do, if it goes against what is not a proper thing, then, this too is a proper thing for you to do.
"And whatever I have not allowed, saying, 'This is a proper thing for you to do,' if it fits in with what is not a proper thing for you to do, if it goes against what is a proper thing, then, this too is not a proper thing for you to do.
"And whatever I have not allowed, saying, 'This is a proper thing for you to do,' if it fits in with what is a proper thing for you to do, if it goes against what is not a proper thing, then, this is a proper thing for you to do."
the rule is then applied (with correct reasoning) to any substance used recreationally for intoxication which results in a lack of heedfulness on the path.
no good intention needed, only cross referencing what is and is not going to be covered by such a rule.
Re: Pali training rules
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:43 pm
by Caraka
the rule is then applied (with correct reasoning)
Where is this connection between the Percept and The Great Reasons of truth? Secondly, It seems that your reasoning should also be my reasoning for some reason, why
Re: Pali training rules
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:13 pm
by daverupa
Caraka wrote:I agree with Wiki, its text is about refrain from alcohol or carelessness from alcohol.
Heroin and MDMA, for example, aren't mentioned; how can we decide whether this precept applies? It seems you are committed to the view that these substances are unrelated to this precept, yes?
As I read it, the emphasis seems to be on
Pamāda - negligence; indolence; remissness; carelessness.
Māda - pride; intoxication; conceit; sexual excess.
else why mention that alcohol does these things? It isn't the substance, it's the effect, isn't it? So, with respect to such negligent excess we might for example try reading it as "alcohol-esque effects" rather than "these three drinks, alone", which seems to be where you're headed...
Re: Pali training rules
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:35 pm
by Cittasanto
Caraka wrote:the rule is then applied (with correct reasoning)
Where is this connection between the Percept and The Great Reasons of truth? Secondly, It seems that your reasoning should also be my reasoning for some reason, why
where do you get "the Great Reasons of truth"?
you have inserted "of truth" for some reason, but Dhamma could be rendered as natural law which would be fitting in the context.
The text is about what is and is not allowable, not truth. it is part of the Vinaya Nikaya (discipline collection) so is directly relevant to the precepts.
Re: Pali training rules
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:07 pm
by Cittasanto
daverupa wrote:else why mention that alcohol does these things? It isn't the substance, it's the effect, isn't it? So, with respect to such negligent excess we might for example try reading it as "alcohol-esque effects" rather than "these three drinks, alone", which seems to be where you're headed...
it certainly is about the effects, if we look into the vinaya there are reasons why alcohol can be allowable, but for specific reasons and doses for mixing. none of the reasons are for or doses make it possible for intoxication.
Regarding "Māda" I included that (and Majjapa) in the word breakdown as it seamed a reasonable alternative reading,
Re: Pali training rules
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:06 am
by Caraka
Heroin and MDMA, for example, aren't mentioned; how can we decide whether this precept applies? It seems you are committed to the view that these substances are unrelated to this precept, yes?
No I am not.
As I read it, the emphasis seems to be on
Pamāda - negligence; indolence; remissness; carelessness.
Māda - pride; intoxication; conceit; sexual excess.
The
majjapamādaṭṭhānā part is neither this or that, and can not be easily translated, eg. Pamada and Mada can not be two different words. It is either Pamada or Mada, if it is Mada, it is again Majjapa not Majja. The only exception must be if a Pali word like Pamada can be extracted to more than one Pali word. E.g. Pamada and Mada (I'm not talking about extracting a Pali word to more than one meaning here). If so, I would like to know why?
Surāmeraya can be translated straight out, at last it seems so now.
else why mention that alcohol does these things? It isn't the substance, it's the effect, isn't it? So, with respect to such negligent excess we might for example try reading it as "alcohol-esque effects" rather than "these three drinks, alone", which seems to be where you're headed...
For this post I was commited only to the translation, not the faith we might put in the words, and I don't know why you try to corner me in an belief that is entirely about your thinking about me.