Pali training rules

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
User avatar
Caraka
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:01 am

Pali training rules

Post by Caraka »

According to Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Precepts) the 5. Precept is:

I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented drink that causes heedlessness.

Surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi. (The Pali can be found, for instance, in Elgiriye Indaratana (2002), p. 2.)

The Wiki states:
In the fifth precept sura, meraya and majja are kinds of alcoholic beverages. In some modern translations, Surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā, is rendered more broadly, variously, as, intoxicants, liquor and drugs, etc.
I.e. The Wiki says the 5. Percept does not say anything about drugs as intoxicants. Is this true according to what has been discussed in this section (forum)?
:reading:
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17169
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Pali training rules

Post by DNS »

heedlessness : (m.) pamāda. (f.) anavadhānatā; asamekkhakāritā.

Drugs cause heedlessness so it is safe to say the precept includes drugs. Most street drugs today were not around at that time and fermented drinks were the more common intoxicant.
lament
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: Pali training rules

Post by lament »

David N. Snyder wrote:Most street drugs today were not around at that time and fermented drinks were the more common intoxicant.
Is it a reasonable assumption that marijuana was so uncommon as to not be worth mentioning in the precept? According to Wikipedia, it's been in use for Hindu rites since 1000 BC, and legally used for religious purposes today.
David2
Posts: 930
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Pali training rules

Post by David2 »

Well, majja (from the root mad) just means intoxicant.

I'm pretty sure that even at the time when the Buddha was living there were more intoxicants than just alcohol. So, the Buddha first mentioned the two most common intoxicants, liquor and fermented liquor, and than he concluded in general: majja, (all) intoxicants that make one heedless.
User avatar
Caraka
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:01 am

Re: Pali training rules

Post by Caraka »

Well, majja (from the root mad) just means intoxicant.
Thanks. Any references you can share that makes this more than your opinion?

As for the record. My question was not about the Buddhas meaning with this Precept, or looking for a 'leagal' way to be stoned without breaking the Precept, but more the translation of the Pali:)
David2
Posts: 930
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Pali training rules

Post by David2 »

Thanks. Any references you can share that makes this more than your opinion?
First entry of "majja" in the Pali-English dictionary by T.W. Rhys Davids is "intoxicant".
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Pali training rules

Post by Cittasanto »

here is a word for word of the particular part of the 5th precept
Surāmerayamajjapamādṭṭhānā
Surāmeraya – rum & spirits.
Surā - intoxicating liquor.
meraya - fermented liquor.
Majjapa - one drinks, strong drinks.
Majja - an intoxicant.
Pamāda - negligence; indolence; remissness; carelessness.
Māda - pride; intoxication; conceit; sexual excess.
ṭhānā - place; locality; condition; reason; office; cause;
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Caraka
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:01 am

Re: Pali training rules

Post by Caraka »

Great, thanks:)

Wiki still say: In the fifth precept sura, meraya and majja are kinds of alcoholic beverages.
User avatar
Caraka
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:01 am

Re: Pali training rules

Post by Caraka »

I agree with Wiki, its text is about refrain from alcohol or carelessness from alcohol. This translation seems also to be supported by other different Buddhist traditions. E.g. the Chinese Mahayana texts just say 'Do not drink alcohol'. And I think the 5 Precept should not be generalised for the good intentions of translator, it should be left to the reader to investigate what the Precepts means for the individual.

Thanks for helping me out in this, all of you.
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Pali training rules

Post by Cittasanto »

Caraka wrote:I agree with Wiki, its text is about refrain from alcohol or carelessness from alcohol. This translation seems also to be supported by other different Buddhist traditions. E.g. the Chinese Mahayana texts just say 'Do not drink alcohol'. And I think the 5 Precept should not be generalised for the good intentions of translator, it should be left to the reader to investigate what the Precepts means for the individual.

Thanks for helping me out in this, all of you.
this is where the great standard comes in!
Mahāpadesa - The Great Reasons - VinMv.6.40.1 (Vin1.6.40.1) wrote:Now at that time uncertainty arose in the sāmaṇas with regard to several things: "What does the fortunate one allow? What is not allowed?" So they relayed the issue to the fortunate One:
(The Buddha) "Meditators, whatever I have not forbidden, saying, 'This is not a proper thing for you to do,' if it fits in with what is not a proper thing for you to do, if it goes against what is a proper thing, then, this too is not a proper thing for you to do.

"Whatever I have not forbidden, saying, 'This is not a proper thing for you to do,' if it fits in with what is a proper thing for you to do, if it goes against what is not a proper thing, then, this too is a proper thing for you to do.

"And whatever I have not allowed, saying, 'This is a proper thing for you to do,' if it fits in with what is not a proper thing for you to do, if it goes against what is a proper thing, then, this too is not a proper thing for you to do.

"And whatever I have not allowed, saying, 'This is a proper thing for you to do,' if it fits in with what is a proper thing for you to do, if it goes against what is not a proper thing, then, this is a proper thing for you to do."
the rule is then applied (with correct reasoning) to any substance used recreationally for intoxication which results in a lack of heedfulness on the path.
no good intention needed, only cross referencing what is and is not going to be covered by such a rule.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Caraka
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:01 am

Re: Pali training rules

Post by Caraka »

the rule is then applied (with correct reasoning)


Where is this connection between the Percept and The Great Reasons of truth? Secondly, It seems that your reasoning should also be my reasoning for some reason, why :tongue:
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Pali training rules

Post by daverupa »

Caraka wrote:I agree with Wiki, its text is about refrain from alcohol or carelessness from alcohol.
Heroin and MDMA, for example, aren't mentioned; how can we decide whether this precept applies? It seems you are committed to the view that these substances are unrelated to this precept, yes?

As I read it, the emphasis seems to be on

Pamāda - negligence; indolence; remissness; carelessness.
Māda - pride; intoxication; conceit; sexual excess.

else why mention that alcohol does these things? It isn't the substance, it's the effect, isn't it? So, with respect to such negligent excess we might for example try reading it as "alcohol-esque effects" rather than "these three drinks, alone", which seems to be where you're headed...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Pali training rules

Post by Cittasanto »

Caraka wrote:
the rule is then applied (with correct reasoning)


Where is this connection between the Percept and The Great Reasons of truth? Secondly, It seems that your reasoning should also be my reasoning for some reason, why :tongue:
where do you get "the Great Reasons of truth"?
you have inserted "of truth" for some reason, but Dhamma could be rendered as natural law which would be fitting in the context.
The text is about what is and is not allowable, not truth. it is part of the Vinaya Nikaya (discipline collection) so is directly relevant to the precepts.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Pali training rules

Post by Cittasanto »

daverupa wrote:else why mention that alcohol does these things? It isn't the substance, it's the effect, isn't it? So, with respect to such negligent excess we might for example try reading it as "alcohol-esque effects" rather than "these three drinks, alone", which seems to be where you're headed...
:goodpost:
it certainly is about the effects, if we look into the vinaya there are reasons why alcohol can be allowable, but for specific reasons and doses for mixing. none of the reasons are for or doses make it possible for intoxication.

Regarding "Māda" I included that (and Majjapa) in the word breakdown as it seamed a reasonable alternative reading,
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Caraka
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:01 am

Re: Pali training rules

Post by Caraka »

Heroin and MDMA, for example, aren't mentioned; how can we decide whether this precept applies? It seems you are committed to the view that these substances are unrelated to this precept, yes?
No I am not.
As I read it, the emphasis seems to be on

Pamāda - negligence; indolence; remissness; carelessness.
Māda - pride; intoxication; conceit; sexual excess.
The majjapamādaṭṭhānā part is neither this or that, and can not be easily translated, eg. Pamada and Mada can not be two different words. It is either Pamada or Mada, if it is Mada, it is again Majjapa not Majja. The only exception must be if a Pali word like Pamada can be extracted to more than one Pali word. E.g. Pamada and Mada (I'm not talking about extracting a Pali word to more than one meaning here). If so, I would like to know why?

Surāmeraya can be translated straight out, at last it seems so now.
else why mention that alcohol does these things? It isn't the substance, it's the effect, isn't it? So, with respect to such negligent excess we might for example try reading it as "alcohol-esque effects" rather than "these three drinks, alone", which seems to be where you're headed...
For this post I was commited only to the translation, not the faith we might put in the words, and I don't know why you try to corner me in an belief that is entirely about your thinking about me.
Post Reply