Pali training rules

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Re: Pali training rules

Postby Caraka » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:11 pm

translation requires context so a perfect translation of a word may be completely wrong in a particular context.
the task of a translator is to extract what is meant, not a litteral word for word meaning which is not always possible!


Agree, but I do think not doing both is wrong (at least state a word is impossible to translate and why), cause having a meaning about something does not necessarily makes it true. Thats why I do not like anyone saying it is like this or that. I prefer reproof, or at least reflections that leads towards a reproof. Thats why I think it should be a clear difference between translation, faith, and whats actual true (not talking about what oneself might think is true intellectually, which is faith).

Well, your phrase "faith we might put in the words" is less than clear, so let's back up to that for a moment; what did you mean?

You must excuse me if I'm not clear. For this particular phrase I could have written 'faith we put in the Buddhas words', but I'm not sure it really is his, or just a good intention aiming towards high moral and ethics, and the sound of high moral and ethics shines through most of what I have read so far, including your great links of readings Cittasanto.
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Re: Pali training rules

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:57 pm

Caraka wrote:
translation requires context so a perfect translation of a word may be completely wrong in a particular context.
the task of a translator is to extract what is meant, not a litteral word for word meaning which is not always possible!


Agree, but I do think not doing both is wrong (at least state a word is impossible to translate and why), cause having a meaning about something does not necessarily makes it true. Thats why I do not like anyone saying it is like this or that. I prefer reproof, or at least reflections that leads towards a reproof. Thats why I think it should be a clear difference between translation, faith, and whats actual true (not talking about what oneself might think is true intellectually, which is faith).

I never said it is impossible, just other means are sometimes needed to be utilised.
You seam to assume that translators do not reflect, cross reference, have evidence, or anything else and just throw words in as they like, which is not the case as has been shown.

translators tend to try to express the meaning so others can have an easy job and not have to learn another language. when it comes to spiritual texts as vast and old as the Buddhist canon there also needs to be a rendering in a way which makes what is meant easy for new comers to put into practice, so the range is both understood (as shown through & in accord with the vast library of texts) and not taken literally in a narrow manner in an inappropriate way.

if you don't like the current translations learn pali and render everything word for word.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Pali training rules

Postby Caraka » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:04 pm

If anyone want to believe the 5. Precepts, or other translations to be the exact Buddhas words, or meaning. One must also believe only Arhats translated the Pali Canon, and only Arhats was responsible for the oral delivery from generation to generation before the Pali Canon was written, one can, for sure. I don't. Nor do I say or assume you do. And when I say I don't, it is not the same as I claim everyone doing so for being idiots or wrongdoing, or have no insight at all. I only say it is for oneself to find out, and there is more colors than just black and white.
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Re: Pali training rules

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:51 pm

Caraka wrote:If anyone want to believe the 5. Precepts, or other translations to be the exact Buddhas words, or meaning. One must also believe only Arhats translated the Pali Canon, and only Arhats was responsible for the oral delivery from generation to generation before the Pali Canon was written, one can, for sure. I don't. Nor do I say or assume you do. And when I say I don't, it is not the same as I claim everyone doing so for being idiots or wrongdoing, or have no insight at all. I only say it is for oneself to find out, and there is more colors than just black and white.

I am afraid you are not being clear here, and don't seam to be addressing anything said to you.

if you don't, nor say/assume others do then why say it at all?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Pali training rules

Postby whynotme » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:02 am

Caraka wrote:I agree with Wiki, its text is about refrain from alcohol or carelessness from alcohol. This translation seems also to be supported by other different Buddhist traditions. E.g. the Chinese Mahayana texts just say 'Do not drink alcohol'. And I think the 5 Precept should not be generalised for the good intentions of translator, it should be left to the reader to investigate what the Precepts means for the individual.

Thanks for helping me out in this, all of you.

I agree with you, keeping word to word translation also show respect to the teacher/tradition and the scientific attitude

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