Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya...

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Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya...

Postby alan... » Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:57 am

Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya parimukham satim upatthapetva so satova assasati sato passasati

"sits down, having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect and established mindfulness in front of him."

my main question here is which word(s) are "folded his legs crosswise"? do they definitively translate as "lotus pose" or could this just be instruction to sit with legs folded inward?
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Re: Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya...

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:57 am

pallankam = cross-legged; which does not appear to mention the lotus specific style of sitting cross-legged. In other references to meditation and mindfulness other postures are mentioned such as standing, walking, lying down; which shows that mindfulness can / should be done in all positions, so lotus is not required.
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Re: Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya...

Postby SamKR » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:20 am

alan... wrote:
my main question here is which word(s) are "folded his legs crosswise"? do they definitively translate as "lotus pose" or could this just be instruction to sit with legs folded inward?

I think it means sukhasana (pleasant-position) or padmasana (lotus-position).
In Indian subcontinent it is still very common to sit in sukhasana. I have heard that if one masters padmasana, it will help to sit for many hours without changing position. I persoanlly prefer sukhasana because it is easy.

David N. Snyder wrote:pallankam = cross-legged; which does not appear to mention the lotus specific style of sitting cross-legged. In other references to meditation and mindfulness other postures are mentioned such as standing, walking, lying down; which shows that mindfulness can / should be done in all positions, so lotus is not required.

In Maha-satipatthana sutta the Buddha mentions about sitting cross-legged only in anapana section. So, perhaps, sitting cross-legged is useful mainly for mindfulness of breathing, and not required for other types of mindfulness.
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Re: Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya...

Postby alan... » Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:07 am

David N. Snyder wrote:pallankam = cross-legged; which does not appear to mention the lotus specific style of sitting cross-legged. In other references to meditation and mindfulness other postures are mentioned such as standing, walking, lying down; which shows that mindfulness can / should be done in all positions, so lotus is not required.



:thanks:


:woohoo:
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Re: Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya...

Postby alan... » Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:08 am

SamKR wrote:
alan... wrote:
my main question here is which word(s) are "folded his legs crosswise"? do they definitively translate as "lotus pose" or could this just be instruction to sit with legs folded inward?

I think it means sukhasana (pleasant-position) or padmasana (lotus-position).
In Indian subcontinent it is still very common to sit in sukhasana. I have heard that if one masters padmasana, it will help to sit for many hours without changing position. I persoanlly prefer sukhasana because it is easy.

David N. Snyder wrote:pallankam = cross-legged; which does not appear to mention the lotus specific style of sitting cross-legged. In other references to meditation and mindfulness other postures are mentioned such as standing, walking, lying down; which shows that mindfulness can / should be done in all positions, so lotus is not required.

In Maha-satipatthana sutta the Buddha mentions about sitting cross-legged only in anapana section. So, perhaps, sitting cross-legged is useful mainly for mindfulness of breathing, and not required for other types of mindfulness.


awesome thanks! i also love sukhasana for the same reason.
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Re: Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya...

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:27 am

Pallaṅkaṃ means a sofa; a coach; a cross-legged sitting.
It is simply referring to a sturdy sitting posture, not any particular pose one may try to force themselves into.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya...

Postby alan... » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:26 am

Cittasanto wrote:Pallaṅkaṃ means a sofa; a coach; a cross-legged sitting.
It is simply referring to a sturdy sitting posture, not any particular pose one may try to force themselves into.


cool, thanks. i don't like the lotus pose so this is great news.
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Re: Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya...

Postby theY » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:20 am

Same as below image:

Image
Lesson Relationship of Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha (10/31/2012)
http://tipitakanews.org/en/node/61
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Re: Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya...

Postby alan... » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:30 am

theY wrote:Same as below image:

Image


what does each word translate to? do they translate to be exact instructions on putting your legs in lotus pose? or is there a word in there that translates literally to a pali word that has the definition of: lotus pose?
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Re: Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya...

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:37 pm

alan... wrote:
theY wrote:Same as below image:

Image


what does each word translate to? do they translate to be exact instructions on putting your legs in lotus pose? or is there a word in there that translates literally to a pali word that has the definition of: lotus pose?


Lotus = padma, paduma; I don't think lotus posture is specifically mentioned in that passage. Cross-legged is mentioned and lotus was the typical cross-legged posture of the time, but I don't see it mentioned as being a requirement.

I did martial arts for several years in my younger days, so I am very flexible, but I can tell you it is much more important what you do with your mind than what you do with your legs.
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Re: Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya...

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:16 pm

Here is the dictionary definition of each word in-order
nisidati = he sits
pallankam = cross-legged
abhujitva = having bent
ujum = straight
kayam = the body
panidhaya = having applied
parimukham = before him
satim = mindfulness
upatthapetva = having established
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya...

Postby alan... » Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:54 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
alan... wrote:
theY wrote:Same as below image:

Image


what does each word translate to? do they translate to be exact instructions on putting your legs in lotus pose? or is there a word in there that translates literally to a pali word that has the definition of: lotus pose?


Lotus = padma, paduma; I don't think lotus posture is specifically mentioned in that passage. Cross-legged is mentioned and lotus was the typical cross-legged posture of the time, but I don't see it mentioned as being a requirement.

I did martial arts for several years in my younger days, so I am very flexible, but I can tell you it is much more important what you do with your mind than what you do with your legs.


me to. oddly enough that's why i'm buddhist. i started martial arts and read a book on shaolin that recommended meditation to help your martial practice. i had no real interest in buddhism before this and i started meditating and it was so great i just kept going until i arrived here today.

i actually used to be able to do lotus but got kicked in my left knee many times in sparring and even more in preparing for a mock fight for a demonstration and now if i sit lotus, which i am still flexible enough to do, my knee will hurt for days and it seems to be cumulative which obviously is very bad!

so if the lotus pose is not mentioned in this instruction that cuts it out of a huge number of suttas considering this is one of the standard formulas used to instruct on sitting meditation. if lotus pose is not specifically mentioned i believe it's safe to say it's not required otherwise it wouldn't have been left out! probably any of the standard sitting meditation poses are acceptable as long as they are upright and the legs are not sprawled out or otherwise positioned in a way that wouldn't give a solid base for wakeful meditation practice.
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Re: Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya...

Postby alan... » Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:04 am

Cittasanto wrote:Here is the dictionary definition of each word in-order
nisidati = he sits
pallankam = cross-legged
abhujitva = having bent
ujum = straight
kayam = the body
panidhaya = having applied
parimukham = before him
satim = mindfulness
upatthapetva = having established


thanks citta!
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Re: Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya...

Postby Dmytro » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:36 am

Hi Alan,

The Commentary eclucidates this:

Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya parimukham satim upatthapetva so satova assasati sato passasati = "Sits down, bends in his legs crosswise on his lap, keeps is body erect, and arouses mindfulness in the object of meditation, namely, the breath which is in front of him. Mindful he breathes in, and mindful he breathes out."

"Bends in his legs crosswise on his lap." Three things pertaining to the sitting posture of the yogi are pointed out by that: firmness of the posture; easefulness of breathing due to the posture; and the expediency of the posture for laying hold of the subject of meditation.

One sits in this posture having locked in the legs. It is the entirely thigh-bound sitting posture, and is known as the lotus, and the immovable posture too.

"Keeps his body erect." Keeps the vertebrae in such a position that every segment of the backbone is said to be placed upright, and end to end throughout. The body, waist upwards, is held straight.

"Arouses mindfulness in front." Fixes the attention by directing it towards the breath which is in front.

"Mindful he breathes in and mindful he breathes out." Breathes in and out without abandoning mindfulness.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... wayof.html
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Re: Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya...

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:07 pm

Thanks for that, Dmytro; that is interesting. So would you say lotus is required based on that Commentary? Or just recommended? Other postures are mentioned in the Satipatthana Sutta.

I know of only one school, the City of Ten Thousand Buddhas (form of Chinese-Mahayana Buddhism) that requires full lotus. They insist that their monastics sit in full lotus or if they can't, to work diligently toward that.
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Re: Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya...

Postby Dmytro » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:49 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:Thanks for that, Dmytro; that is interesting. So would you say lotus is required based on that Commentary? Or just recommended?


I would say - recommended.

Original Pali, from the Atthakatha to another sutta, clarifies some details:

Pallaṅkanti samantato ūrubaddhāsanaṃ. Ābhujitvāti bandhitvā. Ujuṃ kāyaṃ paṇidhāyāti uparimaṃ sarīraṃ ujukaṃ ṭhapetvā, aṭṭhārasa piṭṭhikaṇṭake koṭiyā koṭiṃ paṭipādetvā. Parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvāti kammaṭṭhānābhimukhaṃ satiṃ ṭhapayitvā, mukhasamīpe vā katvāti attho. Teneva vibhaṅge vuttaṃ – ‘‘ayaṃ sati upaṭṭhitā hoti sūpaṭṭhitā nāsikagge vā mukhanimitte vā, tena vuccati parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā’’ti (vibha. 537). Atha vā ‘‘parīti pariggahaṭṭho. Mukhanti niyyānaṭṭho. Satīti upaṭṭhānaṭṭho. Tena vuccati parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā’’ti evaṃ paṭisambhidāyaṃ (paṭi. ma. 1.164) vuttanayenapettha attho daṭṭhabbo. Tatrāyaṃ saṅkhepo – ‘‘pariggahitaniyyānaṃ satiṃ katvā’’ti. Evaṃ nisīdanto ca pana chabbaṇṇā ghanabuddharasmiyo vissajjetvā nisīdi.

It gives a reference to Vibhanga, where 'parimukhaṃ' is explained as 'at the tip of the nose or at the lip'.

As for the other sources, Monier-Williams dictionary gives:

palyaṅka
(H1) paly-aṅka
m. = pary-aṅka ( Pa1n2. 8-2 , 22) a bed , couch , bedstead Sin6ha7s. Pan5cad.
a cloth wound round the loins while sitting on the heels and hams L.
so sitting , squatting (cf. pary-aṅka) L.

http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/mwquery/
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Re: Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya...

Postby alan... » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:29 am

Dmytro wrote:Hi Alan,

The Commentary eclucidates this:

Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya parimukham satim upatthapetva so satova assasati sato passasati = "Sits down, bends in his legs crosswise on his lap, keeps is body erect, and arouses mindfulness in the object of meditation, namely, the breath which is in front of him. Mindful he breathes in, and mindful he breathes out."

"Bends in his legs crosswise on his lap." Three things pertaining to the sitting posture of the yogi are pointed out by that: firmness of the posture; easefulness of breathing due to the posture; and the expediency of the posture for laying hold of the subject of meditation.

One sits in this posture having locked in the legs. It is the entirely thigh-bound sitting posture, and is known as the lotus, and the immovable posture too.

"Keeps his body erect." Keeps the vertebrae in such a position that every segment of the backbone is said to be placed upright, and end to end throughout. The body, waist upwards, is held straight.

"Arouses mindfulness in front." Fixes the attention by directing it towards the breath which is in front.

"Mindful he breathes in and mindful he breathes out." Breathes in and out without abandoning mindfulness.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... wayof.html


lol, this is exactly what i was reading the day i created this thread. the pali in my OP is actually a copy/paste of that page. i was wondering if the pali translates like the commentary says "bends his legs crosswise on his lap", as far as i can tell based on what people are saying on here, it does not. but i don't know pali, hence the OP.
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Re: Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya...

Postby Dmytro » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:26 am

alan... wrote:i was wondering if the pali translates like the commentary says "bends his legs crosswise on his lap", as far as i can tell based on what people are saying on here, it does not.


Well, that's an English work. I have not found the Pali original for this paragraph. Perhaps this is a compilation of Pali bits and pieces.
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Re: Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya...

Postby alan... » Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:31 pm

Dmytro wrote:
alan... wrote:i was wondering if the pali translates like the commentary says "bends his legs crosswise on his lap", as far as i can tell based on what people are saying on here, it does not.


Well, that's an English work. I have not found the Pali original for this paragraph. Perhaps this is a compilation of Pali bits and pieces.


assuming citta and david know enough pali, they have translated the words and did not translate it like that. however i don't know it enough to decide for myself, someday perhaps...
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Re: Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya...

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:20 pm

Hi Alan,
Venerable Anandajoti (who I used the pali text of) renders it like this
suññāgāragato vā, nisīdati.
or has gone to an empty place, sits down.
Pallaṅkaṁ ābhujitvā, ujuṁ kāyaṁ paṇidhāya,
After folding his legs crosswise, setting his body straight,
parimukhaṁ satiṁ upaṭṭhapetvā,
and establishing mindfulness at the front,


I doubt the Buddha actually meant only one specific posture, it seams strange considering he never mentions how to stand, walk, or laydown in instructions, he only mentions to use these postures.
but just to note there is mention of how the Buddha lay down, walked... but to assume he was strict regarding posture when there are reasons not to adopt certain sitting postures seams to tight when it comes to here.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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