Alternative translation for arising & passing away

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Alternative translation for arising & passing away

Postby dhammapal » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:56 am

Hi,

I like the 1934 PTS translation of the Anguttara Nikaya with the translation "insight into the way of growth and decay". Arising and passing away sounds like something that happens waving a magic wand.

Any comments?

Thanks / dhammapal.
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Re: Alternative translation for arising & passing away

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:05 am

dhammapal wrote:Hi,

I like the 1934 PTS translation of the Anguttara Nikaya with the translation "insight into the way of growth and decay". Arising and passing away sounds like something that happens waving a magic wand.

Any comments?

Thanks / dhammapal.
Given how rapidly experiences can rise and fall, "rise and fall" seems quite appropriate.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Alternative translation for arising & passing away

Postby pegembara » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:31 am

Image

There is nothing magical about arising and passing away.

Whatever we see, it is not I, not me, nor a man, not a woman. In the eye, there is just color. It arises and passes away. So who is seeing the object? There is no seer in the object. Then how is the object seen? On account of certain causes. What are the causes? Eyes are one cause; they must be intact, in good order. Second, object or color must come in front of the eyes, must reflect on the retina of the eyes. Third, there must be light. Fourth, there must be attention, a mental factor. If those four causes are present, then there arises a knowing faculty called eye consciousness. If any one of the causes is missing, there will not be any seeing. If eyes are blind, no seeing. If there is no light, no seeing. If there is no attention, no seeing. But none of the causes can claim, "I am the seer." They're just constantly arising and passing.

As soon as it passes away, we say, "I am seeing." You are not seeing; you are just thinking, "I am seeing." This is called conditioning. Because our mind is conditioned, when we hear the sound, we say, "I am hearing." But there is no hearer waiting in the car to hear the sound. Sound creates a wave, and, when it strikes against the eardrum, ear consciousness is the effect. Sound is not a man, nor a woman; it is just a sound that arises and passes away. But, according to our conditioning, we say, "That woman is singing and I am hearing." But you're not hearing, you are thinking, "I am hearing." Sound is already heard and gone. There is no "I" who heard the sound; it is the world of concept. Buddha discovered this in the physical level, in the mental level: how everything is happening without an actor, without a doer - empty phenomenon go rolling on.

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Re: Alternative translation for arising & passing away

Postby Sanjay PS » Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:18 am

pegembara wrote:Image

There is nothing magical about arising and passing away.

Whatever we see, it is not I, not me, nor a man, not a woman. In the eye, there is just color. It arises and passes away. So who is seeing the object? There is no seer in the object. Then how is the object seen? On account of certain causes. What are the causes? Eyes are one cause; they must be intact, in good order. Second, object or color must come in front of the eyes, must reflect on the retina of the eyes. Third, there must be light. Fourth, there must be attention, a mental factor. If those four causes are present, then there arises a knowing faculty called eye consciousness. If any one of the causes is missing, there will not be any seeing. If eyes are blind, no seeing. If there is no light, no seeing. If there is no attention, no seeing. But none of the causes can claim, "I am the seer." They're just constantly arising and passing.

As soon as it passes away, we say, "I am seeing." You are not seeing; you are just thinking, "I am seeing." This is called conditioning. Because our mind is conditioned, when we hear the sound, we say, "I am hearing." But there is no hearer waiting in the car to hear the sound. Sound creates a wave, and, when it strikes against the eardrum, ear consciousness is the effect. Sound is not a man, nor a woman; it is just a sound that arises and passes away. But, according to our conditioning, we say, "That woman is singing and I am hearing." But you're not hearing, you are thinking, "I am hearing." Sound is already heard and gone. There is no "I" who heard the sound; it is the world of concept. Buddha discovered this in the physical level, in the mental level: how everything is happening without an actor, without a doer - empty phenomenon go rolling on.

Munindra


........so inspiring.....thank you very much.

sanjay
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Re: Alternative translation for arising & passing away

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:08 am

Greetings,
dhammapal wrote:I like the 1934 PTS translation of the Anguttara Nikaya with the translation "insight into the way of growth and decay". Arising and passing away sounds like something that happens waving a magic wand.

Any comments?

It's much of a muchness. What is imperative to this whole business is that these words, whichever words we use, have an implicit designation as their reference point... a dhamma which has been denoted, which is itself a fabrication.

Depending on the designation applied (i.e. the framed dhamma, the framed experience which we could speak of as rising and falling), the rise and fall of sound, could equally be the fall and rise of silence. Neither is any more true or false than the other.

Thus, the whole thing should be rightly seen in the present as an exercise in subjectively fabricated experience. That's when dispassion becomes an instinctive response to what is experienced... including dispassion towards which set of words are used to denote rise and fall.

AN 3.47 - Bodhi translation wrote:Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the conditioned. What three? An arising is seen, a vanishing is seen, and its alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that defined the conditioned.


Dhammapal wrote:Arising and passing away sounds like something that happens waving a magic wand.

Perhaps that allusion is not as unjustified as you assume it is...

Kālakārāma Sutta wrote:Form is like a mass of foam
And feeling - but an airy bubble.
Perception is like a mirage
And formations a plantain tree.

Consciousness is a magic-show,
A juggler's trick entire,
All these similes were made known
By the 'Kinsman-of-the-Sun." (3) S.III.142.


Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Alternative translation for arising & passing away

Postby phongdharma » Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:10 pm

How does "the knowing" in Thai Forest Tratidion relate to this? To my understanding, it seems to be a "constant" knower that's always there, even the sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, mental formation comes and goes. The sounds comes and goes, but the knowing is always there. Knowing that the sound is there, and knowing that the sound has gone. Sounds like the concept of buddha's nature, or the unborn in zen.

Any thought?
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Re: Alternative translation for arising & passing away

Postby Neonative » Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:03 am

I am currently using the words 'appearance and disappearance'. How do we feel about using these words to describe what we are trying to mean by arising and passing away?
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Re: Alternative translation for arising & passing away

Postby yikeren » Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:39 am

As this is the Pali stream, can I request that questioners and commentators make a habit of quoting the respective Pali text so that we can learn the original language rather than simply the translations.

I do appreciate all of your contributions.
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Re: Alternative translation for arising & passing away

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:37 am

yikeren wrote:As this is the Pali stream, can I request that questioners and commentators make a habit of quoting the respective Pali text so that we can learn the original language rather than simply the translations.
I do appreciate all of your contributions.


It would be useful to know which Pali terms are being referred to in this thread.
Well, oi dunno...
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Re: Alternative translation for arising & passing away

Postby culaavuso » Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:38 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:It would be useful to know which Pali terms are being referred to in this thread.


The OP seems to be referencing this passage or one similar to it:

AN 5.2 (Pali, PTS Translation by E.M. Hare, Translation by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi) wrote:Katamañca, bhikkhave, paññābalaṃ? Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako paññavā hoti uda­yattha­gā­miniyā paññāya samannāgato ariyāya nibbedhikāya sammā duk­khak­kha­ya­gā­miniyā. Idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paññābalaṃ. Imāni kho, bhikkhave, pañca sekhabalāni.

And what, monks, is the power of insight?
Herein, monks, the Ariyan disciple has insight;
he is endowed with insight into the way of growth and decay,
with Ariyan penetration of the way to the utter destruction of Ill.
This, monks, is called the power of insight.

And what is the power of wisdom? Here, a noble disciple is wise; he possesses the wisdom that discerns arising and passing away, which is noble and penetrative and leads to the complete destruction of suffering. This is called the power of wisdom.


Later posts reference AN 3.47:

AN 3.47 (Pali, PTS Translation by F.L. Woodward M.A., Translation by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi) wrote:“Tīṇimāni, bhikkhave, saṅkhatassa saṅ­kha­ta­lak­kha­ṇāni. Katamāni tīṇi? Uppādo paññāyati, vayo paññāyati, ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ paññāyati. Imāni kho, bhikkhave, tīṇi saṅkhatassa saṅ­kha­ta­lak­kha­ṇānī”ti.

'Monks, there are these three condition-marks
of that which is conditioned.
What three?
Its genesis is apparent,
its passing away is apparent,
its changeability while it persists is apparent.
These are the three condition-marks
of that which is conditioned.

Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the conditioned. What three? An arising is seen, a vanishing is seen, and its alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the conditioned.
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Re: Alternative translation for arising & passing away

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:49 am

culaavuso wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:It would be useful to know which Pali terms are being referred to in this thread.


The OP seems to be referencing this passage or one similar to it:

AN 5.2 (Pali, PTS Translation by E.M. Hare, Translation by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi) wrote:Katamañca, bhikkhave, paññābalaṃ? Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako paññavā hoti uda­yattha­gā­miniyā paññāya samannāgato ariyāya nibbedhikāya sammā duk­khak­kha­ya­gā­miniyā. Idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paññābalaṃ. Imāni kho, bhikkhave, pañca sekhabalāni.

And what, monks, is the power of insight?
Herein, monks, the Ariyan disciple has insight;
he is endowed with insight into the way of growth and decay,
with Ariyan penetration of the way to the utter destruction of Ill.
This, monks, is called the power of insight.

And what is the power of wisdom? Here, a noble disciple is wise; he possesses the wisdom that discerns arising and passing away, which is noble and penetrative and leads to the complete destruction of suffering. This is called the power of wisdom.


Later posts reference AN 3.47:

AN 3.47 (Pali, PTS Translation by F.L. Woodward M.A., Translation by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi) wrote:“Tīṇimāni, bhikkhave, saṅkhatassa saṅ­kha­ta­lak­kha­ṇāni. Katamāni tīṇi? Uppādo paññāyati, vayo paññāyati, ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ paññāyati. Imāni kho, bhikkhave, tīṇi saṅkhatassa saṅ­kha­ta­lak­kha­ṇānī”ti.

'Monks, there are these three condition-marks
of that which is conditioned.
What three?
Its genesis is apparent,
its passing away is apparent,
its changeability while it persists is apparent.
These are the three condition-marks
of that which is conditioned.

Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the conditioned. What three? An arising is seen, a vanishing is seen, and its alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the conditioned.


Thanks. What about "origination" and "dissolution"? Are the Pali terms related?
Well, oi dunno...
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Re: Alternative translation for arising & passing away

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:10 am

Spiny Norman wrote:Thanks. What about "origination" and "dissolution"? Are the Pali terms related?


I think origination is "ubbhava", which is related to "bhava" ( birth ). So not the same.
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Re: Alternative translation for arising & passing away

Postby SamKR » Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:57 am

"Arising and passing away", or "appearance and disappearance", or "rise and fall" all seem okay to me. Each of these different translations may point us towards a little bit different "pointee" (depending upon the subtle differences of meaning of these terms we may carry in our minds), and that may make some difference in results of our practice.
Also, "being and non-being" may also be ok. Though I am not sure whether it is grammatically correct, it points me towards a little bit different but useful understanding.
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