Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

dhammapal wrote:Hi,

I like the 1934 PTS translation of the Anguttara Nikaya with the translation "insight into the way of growth and decay". Arising and passing away sounds like something that happens waving a magic wand.

Any comments?

Thanks / dhammapal.

Whatever we see, it is not I, not me, nor a man, not a woman. In the eye, there is just color. It arises and passes away. So who is seeing the object? There is no seer in the object. Then how is the object seen? On account of certain causes. What are the causes? Eyes are one cause; they must be intact, in good order. Second, object or color must come in front of the eyes, must reflect on the retina of the eyes. Third, there must be light. Fourth, there must be attention, a mental factor. If those four causes are present, then there arises a knowing faculty called eye consciousness. If any one of the causes is missing, there will not be any seeing. If eyes are blind, no seeing. If there is no light, no seeing. If there is no attention, no seeing. But none of the causes can claim, "I am the seer." They're just constantly arising and passing.

As soon as it passes away, we say, "I am seeing." You are not seeing; you are just thinking, "I am seeing." This is called conditioning. Because our mind is conditioned, when we hear the sound, we say, "I am hearing." But there is no hearer waiting in the car to hear the sound. Sound creates a wave, and, when it strikes against the eardrum, ear consciousness is the effect. Sound is not a man, nor a woman; it is just a sound that arises and passes away. But, according to our conditioning, we say, "That woman is singing and I am hearing." But you're not hearing, you are thinking, "I am hearing." Sound is already heard and gone. There is no "I" who heard the sound; it is the world of concept. Buddha discovered this in the physical level, in the mental level: how everything is happening without an actor, without a doer - empty phenomenon go rolling on.

Munindra

pegembara wrote:

There is nothing magical about arising and passing away.

Whatever we see, it is not I, not me, nor a man, not a woman. In the eye, there is just color. It arises and passes away. So who is seeing the object? There is no seer in the object. Then how is the object seen? On account of certain causes. What are the causes? Eyes are one cause; they must be intact, in good order. Second, object or color must come in front of the eyes, must reflect on the retina of the eyes. Third, there must be light. Fourth, there must be attention, a mental factor. If those four causes are present, then there arises a knowing faculty called eye consciousness. If any one of the causes is missing, there will not be any seeing. If eyes are blind, no seeing. If there is no light, no seeing. If there is no attention, no seeing. But none of the causes can claim, "I am the seer." They're just constantly arising and passing.

As soon as it passes away, we say, "I am seeing." You are not seeing; you are just thinking, "I am seeing." This is called conditioning. Because our mind is conditioned, when we hear the sound, we say, "I am hearing." But there is no hearer waiting in the car to hear the sound. Sound creates a wave, and, when it strikes against the eardrum, ear consciousness is the effect. Sound is not a man, nor a woman; it is just a sound that arises and passes away. But, according to our conditioning, we say, "That woman is singing and I am hearing." But you're not hearing, you are thinking, "I am hearing." Sound is already heard and gone. There is no "I" who heard the sound; it is the world of concept. Buddha discovered this in the physical level, in the mental level: how everything is happening without an actor, without a doer - empty phenomenon go rolling on.

Munindra

dhammapal wrote:I like the 1934 PTS translation of the Anguttara Nikaya with the translation "insight into the way of growth and decay". Arising and passing away sounds like something that happens waving a magic wand.

Any comments?

AN 3.47 - Bodhi translation wrote:Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the conditioned. What three? An arising is seen, a vanishing is seen, and its alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that defined the conditioned.

Dhammapal wrote:Arising and passing away sounds like something that happens waving a magic wand.

Kālakārāma Sutta wrote:Form is like a mass of foam
And feeling - but an airy bubble.
Perception is like a mirage
And formations a plantain tree.

Consciousness is a magic-show,
A juggler's trick entire,
All these similes were made known
By the 'Kinsman-of-the-Sun." (3) S.III.142.

yikeren wrote:As this is the Pali stream, can I request that questioners and commentators make a habit of quoting the respective Pali text so that we can learn the original language rather than simply the translations.
I do appreciate all of your contributions.

Spiny Norman wrote: It would be useful to know which Pali terms are being referred to in this thread.

[url=http://suttacentral.net/an5.2]AN 5.2[/url] (Pali, [url=http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/pts/an/05_fives/an05.002.hare.pts.htm]PTS Translation by E.M. Hare[/url], [url=http://suttacentral.net/en/an5.2]Translation by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi[/url]) wrote: Katamañca, bhikkhave, paññābalaṃ? Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako paññavā hoti uda­yattha­gā­miniyā paññāya samannāgato ariyāya nibbedhikāya sammā duk­khak­kha­ya­gā­miniyā. Idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paññābalaṃ. Imāni kho, bhikkhave, pañca sekhabalāni.

And what, monks, is the power of insight?
Herein, monks, the Ariyan disciple has insight;
he is endowed with insight into the way of growth and decay,
with Ariyan penetration of the way to the utter destruction of Ill.
This, monks, is called the power of insight.

And what is the power of wisdom? Here, a noble disciple is wise; he possesses the wisdom that discerns arising and passing away, which is noble and penetrative and leads to the complete destruction of suffering. This is called the power of wisdom.

[url=http://suttacentral.net/an3.47]AN 3.47[/url] (Pali, [url=http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/pts/an/03_threes/an03.047.wood.pts.htm]PTS Translation by F.L. Woodward M.A.[/url], [url=http://suttacentral.net/en/an3.47]Translation by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi[/url]) wrote: “Tīṇimāni, bhikkhave, saṅkhatassa saṅ­kha­ta­lak­kha­ṇāni. Katamāni tīṇi? Uppādo paññāyati, vayo paññāyati, ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ paññāyati. Imāni kho, bhikkhave, tīṇi saṅkhatassa saṅ­kha­ta­lak­kha­ṇānī”ti.

'Monks, there are these three condition-marks
of that which is conditioned.
What three?
Its genesis is apparent,
its passing away is apparent,
its changeability while it persists is apparent.
These are the three condition-marks
of that which is conditioned.

Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the conditioned. What three? An arising is seen, a vanishing is seen, and its alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the conditioned.

culaavuso wrote:

Spiny Norman wrote: It would be useful to know which Pali terms are being referred to in this thread.

The OP seems to be referencing this passage or one similar to it:

[url=http://suttacentral.net/an5.2]AN 5.2[/url] (Pali, [url=http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/pts/an/05_fives/an05.002.hare.pts.htm]PTS Translation by E.M. Hare[/url], [url=http://suttacentral.net/en/an5.2]Translation by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi[/url]) wrote: Katamañca, bhikkhave, paññābalaṃ? Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako paññavā hoti uda­yattha­gā­miniyā paññāya samannāgato ariyāya nibbedhikāya sammā duk­khak­kha­ya­gā­miniyā. Idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paññābalaṃ. Imāni kho, bhikkhave, pañca sekhabalāni.

And what, monks, is the power of insight?
Herein, monks, the Ariyan disciple has insight;
he is endowed with insight into the way of growth and decay,
with Ariyan penetration of the way to the utter destruction of Ill.
This, monks, is called the power of insight.

And what is the power of wisdom? Here, a noble disciple is wise; he possesses the wisdom that discerns arising and passing away, which is noble and penetrative and leads to the complete destruction of suffering. This is called the power of wisdom.

Later posts reference AN 3.47:

[url=http://suttacentral.net/an3.47]AN 3.47[/url] (Pali, [url=http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/pts/an/03_threes/an03.047.wood.pts.htm]PTS Translation by F.L. Woodward M.A.[/url], [url=http://suttacentral.net/en/an3.47]Translation by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi[/url]) wrote: “Tīṇimāni, bhikkhave, saṅkhatassa saṅ­kha­ta­lak­kha­ṇāni. Katamāni tīṇi? Uppādo paññāyati, vayo paññāyati, ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ paññāyati. Imāni kho, bhikkhave, tīṇi saṅkhatassa saṅ­kha­ta­lak­kha­ṇānī”ti.

'Monks, there are these three condition-marks
of that which is conditioned.
What three?
Its genesis is apparent,
its passing away is apparent,
its changeability while it persists is apparent.
These are the three condition-marks
of that which is conditioned.

Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the conditioned. What three? An arising is seen, a vanishing is seen, and its alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the conditioned.

Spiny Norman wrote: Thanks. What about "origination" and "dissolution"? Are the Pali terms related?