ti-kileśā

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ti-kileśā

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue May 04, 2010 3:07 pm

The three defilements or poisons are sometimes written as:

1. Greed, attachment, craving (lobha), (tanhā)
2. Hatred, aversion (dosa), (virodha)
3. Ignorance, delusion (avijja), (moha)

So which is the 'correct' Pali rendering? Is it lobha, dosa, moha? Or is it tanha, virodha, avijja? Or some other combination?
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Re: ti-kileśā

Postby Sekha » Tue May 04, 2010 4:22 pm

I guess both these renderings are correct.

I wonder if they are exactly synonymous or if there is any difference
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Re: ti-kileśā

Postby Anicca » Tue May 04, 2010 4:40 pm

Is this a trick question? :roll:


Where specifically do you find tanha, viroda and avijja grouped as "the three stooges"?
Those knowing much more than i list ten with your first three as the roots.

from NYANATILOKA MAHATHERA:

kilesa: 'defilements', are mind-defiling, unwholesome qualities. Vis.M. XXII, 49, 65: "There are 10
defilements, thus called because they are themselves defiled, and because they defile the mental factors
associated with them. They are: (1) greed (lobha), (2) hate (dosa), (3) delusion (moha), (4) conceit (mána),
(5) speculative views (ditthi), (6) skeptical doubt (vicikicchá), (7) mental torpor (thína), (8) restlessness
(uddhacca); (9) shamelessness (ahirika), (10) lack of moral dread or unconscientiousness (anottappa)." For
1-3, s. múla; 4, s. mána; 5, s. ditthi; 6-8, s. nívarana; 9 and 10, s. ahirika-anottappa.
The ten are explained in Dhs. 1229f and enumerated in Vibh. XII. No classification of the k. is found in the
Suttas, though the term occurs quite often in them. For the related term, upakkilesa (q.v.; 'impurities')
different lists are given - (App.).
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Re: ti-kileśā

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue May 04, 2010 4:45 pm

Dukkhanirodha wrote:I guess both these renderings are correct.
I wonder if they are exactly synonymous or if there is any difference


Very synonymous, but slightly different meanings.
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Re: ti-kileśā

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue May 04, 2010 4:46 pm

Anicca wrote:Those knowing much more than i list ten with your first three as the roots.


Yes, ten are listed in the Abhidhamma (and also Visuddhimagga), but I was referring to the three [primary] causes of kamma or causes of unwholesome conduct.
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Re: ti-kileśā

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue May 04, 2010 5:11 pm

Some depictions / translations of Dependent Origination include avijjā, taṇhā. But many (most?) depictions of the three poisons show it as lobha, dosa, moha.

I think the problem may be more with incorrect translations to English and then when someone puts it 'back to Pali' it might be going to the wrong Pali terms.
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Re: ti-kileśā

Postby Sekha » Tue May 04, 2010 10:13 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
Dukkhanirodha wrote:I guess both these renderings are correct.
I wonder if they are exactly synonymous or if there is any difference


Very synonymous, but slightly different meanings.


Then I wonder what is exactly the difference. Are we even still able to tell?
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Re: ti-kileśā

Postby retrofuturist » Wed May 05, 2010 3:53 am

Greetings David,

Have you had a look at...?

The Roots Of Good And Evil
by Nyaponika Thera
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/roots_goodevil.pdf

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: ti-kileśā

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed May 05, 2010 4:16 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings David,
Have you had a look at...?
The Roots Of Good And Evil
by Nyaponika Thera
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/roots_goodevil.pdf


Hi Retro,

Thanks, that looks like a good booklet. From page xviii :

Pamādamūlako lobho, lobho vivādamūlako,
dāsabyakārako lobho, lobho paramhi petiko.
Taṃ lobhaṃ parijānantaṃ vande’ haṃ vītalobhakaṃ.

Vihaññamūlako doso, doso virūpakārako,
vināsakārako doso, doso paramhi nerayo.
Taṃ dosaṃ parijānantaṃ vande’ haṃ vītadosakaṃ.

Sabbāghamūlako moho, moho sabbītikārako,
sabbandhakārako moho, moho paramhi svādiko.
Taṃ mohaṃ parijānantaṃ vande’ haṃ vītamohakaṃ.


If the above is from Tipitaka, then it would clearly be lobha, dosa, moha. However, at the bottom of that quote, it shows:

[A traditional devotional Pali text from Sri Lanka. Source unknown.]


And then on next page:

There are three roots of the unwholesome: greed, hatred and
delusion; and there are three roots of the wholesome: non-greed,
non-hatred and non-delusion.
Digha Nikaya 33 (Sangīti Sutta)


So now I (or we) just need to find that Sutta in Pali (not English) and see which Pali terms are used.
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Re: ti-kileśā

Postby retrofuturist » Wed May 05, 2010 4:18 am

Greetings David,

Isn't there a full Romanised version of the Sutta Pitaka on the Internet?

I've got little doubt you know enough Pali words in order to know which ones you're looking for... hell, you could probably even use a word search!

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: ti-kileśā

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed May 05, 2010 4:23 am

Hi Retro,

Already done!

http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... iti-p.html

So it is lobha, dosa, moha. A word search for lobho, doso or moho will show the relevant passage.
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Re: ti-kileśā

Postby retrofuturist » Wed May 05, 2010 6:00 am

Greetings David,

Nice work.

In that case, I'm particularly interested in #3 which you raised.

3. Ignorance, delusion (avijja), (moha)

Because moha is used in the context of the three roots, and avijja is used in the context of dependent origination... what is the significance is the usage of the different terms in those different contexts?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: ti-kileśā

Postby Sekha » Wed May 05, 2010 9:25 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings David,

Nice work.

In that case, I'm particularly interested in #3 which you raised.

3. Ignorance, delusion (avijja), (moha)

Because moha is used in the context of the three roots, and avijja is used in the context of dependent origination... what is the significance is the usage of the different terms in those different contexts?

Metta,
Retro. :)

I wonder the same thing
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org
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Re: ti-kileśā

Postby Adrien » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:13 pm

I found something about a possible difference between avijja and moha :

T. H. Perera wrote:Ignorance (avijja) and delusion (moha) are taken as synonyms. To my mind, it appears that there is a subtle distinction between the two. The Pali word avijja literally means not-knowing and moha literally means delusion. The former is the inability to know or see things as they really are, while the latter clouds an object and obscures mental vision.

http://www.bps.lk/olib/bl/bl035-p.html

Bhante Gunaratana seems to agree with this consideration :

Bhante Gunaratana wrote:When there is ignorance there is confusion. That is another word. Ignorance is called avijja. Confusion is called moha. When we do not know the truth, we build up theories. We come up with all kind of theories. Theories regarding the world, the self. All the theories in the world are based on these two factors. What are the two factors? The belief in self and about the world. These theories confuse us and that is called moha. avijja is one thing, moha is another. Moha is the result of avijja. avijja is not knowing the Four Noble Truths.

http://www.bhavanasociety.org/resource/four_noble_truths/

About tanha, I just had an idea. I always have been wondering why we don't find aversion in dependant origination and only desire. Would it be possible that tanha represent both of them ? This way, there would be two types of tanha : lobha, and dosa.
Please don't hesitate to correct my english if you feel to
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