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Re: Pali Term: Sati
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:20 am
by Sylvester
tiltbillings wrote:Which is actually a good bit. And if one follows the thread, one can see easily enough that the meaning of sati as it is actually used in the suttas is a bit more plastic than you seem to want to admit to.
Taking a pesky text critical approach to the Vibh 7 that was quoted, it looks as if the exposition is nicely arranged according to the waxing syllables principle to set out 3 sets of synonyms -
1. "
sati anussati paṭissati" being one set of a waxing syllable sequence of 2, 4, 4;
2. "
sati saraṇatā" being a new sequence shown by the intrusion of the bi-syllabic
sati after
paṭissati; and
3. "
dhāraṇatā apilāpanatā asammussanatā" being the final set of 4, 6, 6.
Interestingly, this Vibh set is found in an expanded version in the Mahāniddesa as follows -
Yā sati anussati paṭissati sati saraṇatā dhāraṇatā apilāpanatā asammussanatā sati satindriyaṃ satibalaṃ sammāsati satisambojjhaṅgo ekāyanamaggo, ayaṃ vuccati sati
Two additional sequences are included, ie the
sati satindriyaṃ satibalaṃ set followed by the
sammāsati satisambojjhaṅgo ekāyanamaggo set.
With 5 sets of meanings arranged according to the waxing syllables principle, it looks as if the early redactors had a very broad range of meanings in mind for "
sati".
Re: Pali Term: Sati
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:04 am
by Assaji
Sylvester wrote:Yā sati anussati paṭissati sati saraṇatā dhāraṇatā apilāpanatā asammussanatā sati satindriyaṃ satibalaṃ sammāsati satisambojjhaṅgo ekāyanamaggo, ayaṃ vuccati sati
Definition of
sati through
dhāraṇatā points to the similarity with
dhāraṇā from the Yoga-sutra of Patanjali.
3.1 Concentration (dharana) is the process of holding or fixing the attention of mind onto one object or place
http://swamij.com/yoga-sutras-30103.htm#3.1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Both
sati and
dhāraṇā are essential for developing jhana (dhyana).
Idha tvaṃ mahānāma tathāgataṃ anussareyyāsi 'itipi so bhagavā arahaṃ sammā sambuddho vijjācaraṇasampanno sugato lokavidū anuttaro purisadammasārathī satthā devamanussānaṃ buddho bhagavā'ti. Yasmiṃ samaye mahānāma ariyasāvako tathāgataṃ anussarati, nevassa tasmiṃ samaye rāgapariyuṭṭhitaṃ cittaṃ hoti, na dosapariyuṭṭhitaṃ cittaṃ hoti, na mohapariyuṭṭhitaṃ cittaṃ hoti. Ujugatamevassa tasmiṃ samaye cittaṃ hoti tathāgataṃ ārabbha. Ujugatacitto kho pana mahānāma ariyasāvako labhati atthavedaṃ, labhati dhammavedaṃ labhati dhammūpasaṃhitaṃ pāmojjaṃ. Pamuditassa pīti jāyati, pītamanassa kāyo passambhati, passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vediyati, sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati.
[1] "There is the case where you recollect the Tathagata: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the Tathagata. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Pali Term: Sati
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:34 am
by rahul3bds
Hi Dmytro,
In an attempt to extract the meaning of sati from the word Satipaṭṭhāna itself, i have noticed the ambiguity of the compound word Satipaṭṭhāna, and later i found this-
An excerpt from an article by Patrick Kearney:
but what is satipaṭṭhāna? Again,
satipaṭṭhāna is a compound word made of two parts, but because of the rules of Pāli word
formation there is an ambiguity built into its meaning. Satipaṭṭhāna can be broken up into both
sati + paṭṭhāna and sati + upaṭṭhāna.
• Sati-pa-(ṭ)ṭhāna: “Paṭṭhāna” (from pa, which functions as an intensifier, and ṭhāna, a “place”
or “station”) is usually translated as “foundation,” and could be translated as “domain.” So sati-pa-(ṭ)ṭhāna means the “foundations of mindfulness,” or “domains of mindfulness.”
Paṭṭhāna indicates where or on what mindfulness should be placed, and Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta
(M10) lists four of these domains: body (kāya), feelings (vedanā), heart/mind (citta) and
phenomena (dhammas). These represent the entire body-mind process, the whole range of
human experience. Or, we could say they indicate the five clung-to aggregates (pañc’
upādānakkhandhā), which again indicates the self-within-her-world. Sati-pa-(ṭ)ṭhāna is
remembering what is present.
• Sati-upa-(ṭ)ṭhāna: “Upaṭṭhāna” (from upa, denoting nearness or close touch, and ṭhāna, “being
settled or established”) means “keeping near,” or “staying intimate,” and so indicates the
activity of “staying present” or “attending.” Sati-upa-(ṭ)ṭhāna is the activity, the practice
itself. Sati-upa-(ṭ)ṭhāna is remembering to be present.
Could there really be such ambiguity???
Re: Pali Term: Sati
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:47 am
by mikenz66
Sure,
See also Bhikkhu Bodhi's note here:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=14914" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
which says basically the same thing.
Mike
Re: Pali Term: Sati
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:15 am
by Assaji
Hi,
rahul3bds wrote:Could there really be such ambiguity???
There's actually no ambiguity since 'paṭṭhāna' is a later word.
See:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5656" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Pali Term: Sati
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:37 am
by rahul3bds
There's actually no ambiguity since 'paṭṭhāna' is a later word.
See: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5656
Therefore, the compound satipaṭṭhāna consists of two words, 'sati' and 'upaṭṭhāna', which can be translated as '(way of) establishing remembrance'.
Thank you,this clears a lot up. Also there is an obsolete phrase in Hindi, "smriti ka upasthaan" which literally means "establishment of memory". No doubt you're translating it (satipaṭṭhāna) right.
Re: Pali Term: Sati
Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:41 am
by Sylvester
Dmytro wrote:Sylvester wrote:Yā sati anussati paṭissati sati saraṇatā dhāraṇatā apilāpanatā asammussanatā sati satindriyaṃ satibalaṃ sammāsati satisambojjhaṅgo ekāyanamaggo, ayaṃ vuccati sati
Definition of
sati through
dhāraṇatā points to the similarity with
dhāraṇā from the Yoga-sutra of Patanjali.
3.1 Concentration (dharana) is the process of holding or fixing the attention of mind onto one object or place
http://swamij.com/yoga-sutras-30103.htm#3.1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks Dmytro. This is really useful.
I wonder if the Pali exegetical understanding of the verb
dhāreti is in any way influenced by or related to the Skt usage of
dhāraṇā?
Re: Pali Term: Sati
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:59 am
by danieLion
A lot of people think that "mindfulness" or "awareness" means you focus on something. But, actually, the right definition of the word "awareness" [or "mindfulness'] in Pāli is sati. The right translation of it is just "not forgetting, to know yourself."
-Sayadaw U Tejaniya, 6.16.07
Right Attitude for Meditation (1 of 3) 30:00-30:33
Download
Re: Pali Term: Sati
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:19 am
by Assaji
Hi Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:I wonder if the Pali exegetical understanding of the verb dhāreti is in any way influenced by or related to the Skt usage of dhāraṇā?
Well, Vibhanga was composed when the Sanskrit didn't yet exist.
Even Maitrāyaṇi Upanishad is post-Ashokan and evidently shows signs of Buddhist influence.
"18. The precept for effecting this [unity] is this: restraint of the breath (prāṇāyāma), withdrawal of the senses (pratyāhāra), meditation (dhyāna), concentration (dhāraṇā), contemplation (tarka), absorption (samādhi). Such is said to be the sixfold Yoga."
http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_ ... &Itemid=27" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitrayaniya_Upanishad" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Pali Term: Sati
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:21 pm
by Spiny Norman
Dmytro wrote:Hi Porpoise,
porpoise wrote:I just had another look at the Satipatthana Sutta, and there sati seems to have the primary meanings of paying attention to, and being aware of.
The meaning of
sati in Satipatthana sutta is explained in the early text, Satipatthana-Vibhanga:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 55#p205855" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks. I was thinking that Right Mindfulness ( samma sati ) is usually defined in terms of the 4 frames of reference, which I assume means that if there is a primary meaning of
sati, then it is the one that corresponds to the Satipatthana Sutta.
Re: Pali Term: Sati
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:32 pm
by Assaji
porpoise wrote:I was thinking that Right Mindfulness ( samma sati ) is usually defined in terms of the 4 frames of reference, which I assume means that if there is a primary meaning of sati, then it is the one that corresponds to the Satipatthana Sutta.
Satipatthana sutta is but one of the suttas on the Satipatthana practice. It describes the four ways os establishing
sati, and how
awareness (sampajanna) works when sati is established in one of four ways. That's how
sati directs awareness to a particular sphere.
Another important aspect of
sati in Satipatthana practice is remembrance to apply right effort so that the skilful behavior would be delevoped, and unskilful abandoned. This is explained in
Bhikkhunupassaya sutta and
Mahacattarisaka sutta (MN 117).
Re: Pali Term: Sati
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:39 am
by Spiny Norman
Dmytro wrote:Another important aspect of
sati in Satipatthana practice is remembrance to apply right effort so that the skilful behavior would be delevoped, and unskilful abandoned. This is explained in
Bhikkhunupassaya sutta and
Mahacattarisaka sutta (MN 117).
Yes, I was looking at MN117 again the other day. Would it be correct to say that sati has both passive and active qualities? Being mindful of the four frames, but also
acting mindfully?
Re: Pali Term: Sati
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:24 pm
by Assaji
porpoise wrote:Would it be correct to say that sati has both passive and active qualities? Being mindful of the four frames, but also acting mindfully?
I would say that
sati is both remembrance to maintain awareness in the chosen aspect of experience, and remembrance to apply right effort.
The right effort is described in the suttas as primarily shifting the focus of attention from one representation (nimitta) to another, and maintaining it there (see, for example, Bhikkhunupassaya sutta mentioned above).
This is a quite subtle way to act, which requires a certain skill.
See Ven. Thanissaro's article:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... #restraint" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Pali Term: Sati
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:26 am
by Spiny Norman
Dmytro wrote:porpoise wrote:Would it be correct to say that sati has both passive and active qualities? Being mindful of the four frames, but also acting mindfully?
I would say that
sati is both remembrance to maintain awareness in the chosen aspect of experience, and remembrance to apply right effort.
Thanks, I will give this some more thought - in a mindful way of course....
Re: Pali Term: Sati
Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:36 am
by Sekha
Hi Dmytro
you are right from a certain point of view.
but there is also a drawback to this standpoint of yours as it may cause confusion.
In Pali memory and awareness are semantically related, and even confused, because these two phenomena are deeply related in the real world. Without awareness of the present moment, there cannot be memory of this present moment at a future time. And without having developed awareness of the present moment, it is impossible to remember past lives.
But English semantics is not that profound and as far as it is concerned, these two concepts are semantically disconnected. The choice of mindfulness is actually a clever one because it can work as bridge between these concepts, as in memory the mind is "filled" with the sa~n~na of a past phenomenon, and in awareness, the mind is "filled" with the sa~n~na of a present phenomenon.
Meditating is being aware of the present moment. If you use the word remembrance or memory, even if that may arguably be correct in the linguistic sense it will create confusion on the practical level. That's what a lot of people have tried to explain you already.
Should I remind you once again that someone like the Pa Auk Sayadaw, who started studying buddhism at the age of 9 and masters up to the 8th jhana as well as nearly all the insight knowledges of the visuddhimagga, who also knows English fairly, chose for the title of his book on anapanassati: "the mindfulness of breathing"? Would you persist in pretending to be more knowledgeable than him on this issue?