Tevijja Sutta (On Knowledge of The Vedas)

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Tevijja Sutta (On Knowledge of The Vedas)

Postby Goedert » Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:10 am

Friends.

See:
40. "Siyā kho vāseṭṭha tassa purisassa manasākaṭe jatavaddhassa manasākaṭassa maggaṃ puṭṭhassa dandhāyitattaṃ vā vitthāyitattaṃ vā, nattheva tathāgatassa brahmaloke vā brahmalokagāminiyā vā paṭipadāya puṭṭhassa dandhāyitattaṃ vā vitthāyitattaṃ vā. Brahmānañcāhaṃ vāseṭṭha pajānāmi brahmalokañca brahmalokagāminiñca paṭipadaṃ. Yathāpaṭipanno brahmalokaṃ upapanno, tañcapajānāmī"ti.

79. Puna ca paraṃ vāseṭṭha bhikkhu muditāsahagatena cetasā ekaṃ disaṃ eritvā viharati tathā dutiyaṃ tathā tatiyaṃ tathā catutthiṃ. Iti uddhamadho tiriyaṃ sabbadhi sabbattatāya sabbāvantaṃ lokaṃ muditāsahagatena cetasā vipulena mahaggatena appamāṇena averena avyāpajjhena pharitvā viharati. Seyyathāpi vāseṭṭha balavā saṅkhadhamo appakasireneva cātuddisaṃ sarena viññāpeyya, evameva kho vāseṭṭha evaṃ bhāvitāya mettāya cetovimuttiyā yaṃ pamāṇakataṃ kammaṃ na taṃ tatrāvasissati, na taṃ tatrāvatiṭṭhati. Ayampi kho vāseṭṭha brahmuno sahavyatāya maggo.

80. Puna ca paraṃ vāseṭṭha bhikkhu upekkhāsahagatena cetasā ekaṃ disaṃ eritvā viharati tathā dutiyaṃ tathā tatiyaṃ tathā catutthiṃ. Iti uddhamadho tiriyaṃ sabbadhi sabbattatāya sabbāvantaṃ lokaṃ upekkhāsahagatena cetasā vipulena mahaggatena appamāṇena averena avyāpajjhena pharitvā viharati. Seyyathāpi vāseṭṭha balavā saṅkhadhamo appakasireneva cātuddisaṃ sarena viññāpeyya, evameva kho vāseṭṭha evaṃ bhāvitāya mettāya cetovimuttiyā yaṃ pamāṇakataṃ kammaṃ na taṃ tatrāvasissati, na taṃ tatrāvatiṭṭhati. Ayampi kho vāseṭṭha brahmuno sahavyatāya maggo.


In this case the Buddha is metaphorically using the hightlighted terms to make Vasettha understand Nibbana and dhamma? Or
In the concept of Master Gotama the union with Brahma of bramanins are the Nibbana of Sramanas?

It is the case here would be fit in argumentum ad hominem?

Can someone that know Pali help me and discuss please.

Thank you for your time friends.


EDIT:

For claryfing what is been asked here and to it simple.

The Dhammapada states:
Brahmanavagga: Brahmans
383
Having striven, brahman,
cut the stream.
Expel sensual passions.
Knowing the ending of fabrications,
brahman,
you know the Unmade.
384
When the brahman has gone
to the beyond of two things,
then all his fetters
go to their end —
he who knows.
385
One whose beyond or
not-beyond or
beyond-&-not-beyond
can't be found;
unshackled, carefree:
he's what I call
a brahman.
386
Sitting silent, dustless,
absorbed in jhana,
his task done, effluents gone,
ultimate goal attained:
he's what I call
a brahman.
387
By day shines the sun;
by night, the moon;
in armor, the warrior;
in jhana, the brahman.
But all day & all night,
every day & every night,
the Awakened One shines
in splendor.
388
He's called a brahman
for having banished his evil,
a contemplative
for living in consonance,
one gone forth
for having forsaken
his own impurities.
389
One should not strike a brahman,
nor should the brahman
let loose with his anger.
Shame on a brahman's killer.
More shame on the brahman
whose anger's let loose.
390
Nothing's better for the brahman
than when the mind is held back
from what is endearing & not.
However his harmful-heartedness
wears away,
that's how stress
simply comes to rest.
391
Whoever does no wrong
in body,
speech,
heart,
is restrained in these three ways:
he's what I call
a brahman.
392
The person from whom
you would learn the Dhamma
taught by the Rightly
Self-Awakened One:
you should honor him with respect —
as a brahman, the flame for a sacrifice.
393-394
Not by matted hair,
by clan, or by birth,
is one a brahman.
Whoever has truth
& rectitude:
he is a pure one,
he, a brahman.

What's the use of your matted hair,
you dullard?
What's the use of your deerskin cloak?
The tangle's inside you.
You comb the outside.
395
Wearing cast-off rags
— his body lean & lined with veins —
absorbed in jhana,
alone in the forest:
he's what I call
a brahman.
396
I don't call one a brahman
for being born of a mother
or sprung from a womb.
He's called a 'bho-sayer'
if he has anything at all.
But someone with nothing,
who clings to no thing:
he's what I call
a brahman.
397
Having cut every fetter,
he doesn't get ruffled.
Beyond attachment,
unshackled:
he's what I call
a brahman.
398
Having cut the strap & thong,
cord & bridle,
having thrown off the bar,
awakened:
he's what I call
a brahman.
399
He endures — unangered —
insult, assault, & imprisonment.
His army is strength;
his strength, forbearance:
he's what I call
a brahman.
400
Free from anger,
duties observed,
principled, with no overbearing pride,
trained, a 'last-body':
he's what I call
a brahman.
401
Like water on a lotus leaf,
a mustard seed on the tip of an awl,
he doesn't adhere to sensual pleasures:
he's what I call
a brahman.
402
He discerns right here,
for himself,
on his own,
his own
ending of stress.
Unshackled, his burden laid down:
he's what I call
a brahman.
403
Wise, profound
in discernment, astute
as to what is the path
& what's not;
his ultimate goal attained:
he's what I call
a brahman.
404
Uncontaminated
by householders
& houseless ones alike;
living with no home,
with next to no wants:
he's what I call
a brahman.
405
Having put aside violence
against beings fearful or firm,
he neither kills nor
gets others to kill:
he's what I call
a brahman.
406
Unopposing among opposition,
unbound among the armed,
unclinging among those who cling:
he's what I call
a brahman.
407
His passion, aversion,
conceit, & contempt,
have fallen away —
like a mustard seed
from the tip of an awl:
he's what I call
a brahman.
408
He would say
what's non-grating,
instructive,
true —
abusing no one:
he's what I call
a brahman.
409
Here in the world
he takes nothing not-given
— long, short,
large, small,
attractive, not:
he's what I call
a brahman.
410
His longing for this
& for the next world
can't be found;
free from longing, unshackled:
he's what I call
a brahman.
411
His attachments,
his homes,
can't be found.
Through knowing
he is unperplexed,
has come ashore
in the Deathless:
he's what I call
a brahman.
412
He has gone
beyond attachment here
for both merit & evil —
sorrowless, dustless, & pure:
he's what I call
a brahman.
413
Spotless, pure, like the moon
— limpid & calm —
his delights, his becomings,
totally gone:
he's what I call
a brahman.
414
He has made his way past
this hard-going path
— samsara, delusion —
has crossed over,
has gone beyond,
is free from want,
from perplexity,
absorbed in jhana,
through no-clinging
Unbound:
he's what I call
a brahman.
415-416
Whoever, abandoning sensual passions here,
would go forth from home —
his sensual passions, becomings,
totally gone:
he's what I call
a brahman.

Whoever, abandoning craving here,
would go forth from home —
his cravings, becomings,
totally gone:
he's what I call
a brahman.
417
Having left behind
the human bond,
having made his way past
the divine,
from all bonds unshackled:
he's what I call
a brahman.
418
Having left behind
delight & displeasure,
cooled, with no acquisitions —
a hero who has conquered
all the world,
every world:
he's what I call
a brahman.
419
He knows in every way
beings' passing away,
and their re-
arising;
unattached, awakened,
well-gone:
he's what I call
a brahman.
420
He whose course they don't know
— devas, gandhabbas, & human beings —
his effluents ended, an arahant:
he's what I call
a brahman.
421
He who has nothing
— in front, behind, in between —
the one with nothing
who clings to no thing:
he's what I call
a brahman.
422
A splendid bull, conqueror,
hero, great seer —
free from want,
awakened, washed:
he's what I call
a brahman.
423
He knows his former lives.
He sees heavens & states of woe,
has attained the ending of birth,
is a sage who has mastered full-knowing,
his mastery
totally mastered:
he's what I call
a brahman.


Why the Buddha honorified so much the status of a true brahman? It is like an arhant for the sramanas.
This thought happen to me: "The Buddha must have trully know what the word brahman mean "those who are in union with Brahma", "those who knows the ultimate truth".

So the bramanin goal or result and result of the dhamma in the view and with the understading of the Buddha is the same or he is using it metaphorically?


There is also a sutta that he says:
"Vasettha, all of you, through of different birth, name, clan and family, who have gone forth from the household life into homelessness, if you are asked who you are, should reply: 'We are ascetics, followers of the Sakyan.' He whose faith in the Tathagata is settled, rooted, established, solid, unshakeable by any ascetic or Brahmin, any deva or mara or Brahma or anyone in the world, can truly say: 'I am a true son of Blessed Lord, born of his mouth, born of Dhamma, created by Dhamma, an heir of Dhamma.' Why is that? Because, Vasettha, this designates the Tathagata: 'The body of Dhamma', that is, 'The body of Brahma', or 'Become Dhamma', that is, 'Become Brahma'.


Pali:
Yassa kho panassa vāseṭṭhā, tathāgate saddhā niviṭṭhā mūlajātā patiṭṭhitā daḷhā asaṃhāriyā4 samaṇena vā brāhmaṇena vā devena vā mārena vā brahmunā vā kenaci vā lokasmiṃ, tassetaṃ kallaṃ vacanāya: bhagavato'mhi putto oraso mukhato jāto dhammajo dhammanimmito dhammadāyādo'ti. Taṃ kissa hetu? Tathāgatassa hetaṃ vāseṭṭhā, adhivacanaṃ dhammakāyo itipi, brahmakāyo itipi, dhammabhuto iti pi, brahmabhuto iti pi.


The Buddha is proclaim the meaning of what is to be a brahma?

"‘Then some beings thought, "Evil things have appeared among beings, such as taking what is not given, censuring, lying, punishment and banishment. We ought to put aside evil and unwholesome things." And they did so. "They Put Aside Evil and Unwholesome Things" is the meaning of Brahmin, which is the first regular title to be introduced for such people. They made leaf-huts in forest places and meditated in them. With the smoking fire gone out, with pestle cast aside, gathering alms for their evening and morning meals, they went away to a village, town, or royal city to seek their food, and then they returned to their leaf-huts to meditate. People saw this and noted how they meditated. "They Meditate[jhayanti]" is the meaning of Jhayaka, which is the second regular title to be introduced.

‘However, some of those beings, not being able to meditate in leaf huts, settled around towns and villages and compiled books. People saw them doing this and not meditating.

‘Now "These Do Not Meditate" is the meaning of Ajjhayaka, which is the third regular title to be introduced. At that time it was regarded as a low designation, but now it is the higher. This, then, Vasettha, is the origin of the class of Brahmins in accordance with the ancient titles that were introduced for them. Their origin was from among the very same beings, like themselves, not different, and in accordance with Dhamma, not otherwise.
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Re: Tevijja Sutta (On Knowledge of The Vedas)

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:19 am

Hi Goedert,

I can't help you with the Pali, but if you are interested in the Tevijja Sutta (DN13) and other Suttas to do with the Brahamviharas and how they relate to the Upanishads, then Chapter 6 of Richard Gombrich's book "What the Buddha Thought" is worth a look.
http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductExtr ... ?PID=19312

See, for example, this review/summary:
http://jayarava.blogspot.com/2007/03/bu ... aphor.html

Mike
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Re: Tevijja Sutta (On Knowledge of The Vedas)

Postby yuttadhammo » Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:55 pm

In this case the Buddha is metaphorically using the hightlighted terms to make Vasettha understand Nibbana and dhamma? Or
In the concept of Master Gotama the union with Brahma of bramanins are the Nibbana of Sramanas?


No, and the path that he explains as leading to the Brahmaloka is the four brahmaviharas, not the path to nibbana. What he is saying is that brahmins don't even know the path to brahma, let alone the path to freedom from suffering. The Buddha knew both, and they were different paths. As per the Sallekha Sutta (MN 8):

na kho panete, cunda, ariyassa vinaye sallekhā vuccanti. diṭṭhadhammasukhavihārā ete ariyassa vinaye vuccanti.


Why the Buddha honorified so much the status of a true brahman? It is like an arhant for the sramanas.


Because, according to the Buddha, a true brahmin is anyone who expels (bāheti=vāheti) evil states. As per the Agañña Sutta (DN 27):

pāpake akusale dhamme vāhentīti kho, vāseṭṭha, `brāhmaṇā, brāhmaṇā' tveva paṭhamaṃ akkharaṃ upanibbattaṃ.


So the bramanin goal or result and result of the dhamma in the view and with the understading of the Buddha is the same or he is using it metaphorically?


The Buddha's understanding is the most brahmins don't have a clue as to what paths lead where, and so whatever goal they might proclaim is meaningless. The Dhamma of the Buddha is for the purpose of complete release (parinibbāna) without clinging (anupādā), and whoever proclaims this goal is proclaiming the same goal as the Buddha, whether they be a brahmin or an outcast. As per the Rathavinītasutta Sutta (MN 24):

anupādāparinibbānatthaṃ kho, āvuso, bhagavati brahmacariyaṃ vussatī"ti.
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Re: Tevijja Sutta (On Knowledge of The Vedas)

Postby yuttadhammo » Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:13 am

Here's a passage more to the point (MN 83):

taṃ kho panānanda, kalyāṇaṃ vattaṃ na nibbidāya na virāgāya na nirodhāya na upasamāya na abhiññāya na sambodhāya na nibbānāya saṃvattati, yāvadeva brahmalokūpapattiyā. idaṃ kho panānanda, etarahi mayā kalyāṇaṃ vattaṃ nihitaṃ ekantanibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṃvattati. katamañcānanda, etarahi mayā kalyāṇaṃ vattaṃ nihitaṃ ekantanibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṃvattati? ayameva ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo, seyyathidaṃ sammādiṭṭhi, sammāsaṅkappo, sammāvācā, sammākammanto, sammāājīvo, sammāvāyāmo , sammāsati, sammāsamādhi.


Trans (Bodhi, p. 696):

But that kind of good practice does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana, but only to reappearance in the Brahma-world. But there is this kind of good practice that has been instituted by me now, which leads to complete disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. And what is that good practice? It is this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration.
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Re:Sanskrit Brahmaa or Brahma

Postby Will » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:31 am

In this sutta is the "world of brahmaa" the creator deity being referred to or brahma ie brahman the impersonal principle? I do not know if Pali puts a macron over the last "a" for the creator deity like the Sanskrit.
This noble eightfold path is the ancient path traveled by all the Buddhas of eons past. Nagara Sutta
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