Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Hello Pali friends,

According to the Pali sources,

Sineru (aka Meru) is:

A mountain, forming the centre of the world. It is submerged in the sea to a depth of eighty four thousand yojanas and rises above the surface to the same height.

(SNA.ii.443; Sp.i.119; Vsm.206; cp. Mtu.ii.300; Dvy.217; it is eighty thousand leagues broad, A.iv.100).

On the top of Sineru is Tāvatimsa (SNA.ii.485f), while at its foot is the Asurabhavana of ten thousand leagues; in the middle are the four Mahādīpā with their two thousand smaller dīpā.

http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_n ... sineru.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

According to Sattasuriya sutta (AN 4.99):

‘‘Sineru, bhikkhave, pabbatarājā caturāsītiyojanasahassāni āyāmena, caturāsītiyojanasahassāni vitthārena, caturāsītiyojanasahassāni mahāsamudde ajjhogāḷho, caturāsītiyojanasahassāni mahāsamuddā accuggato."

"Sineru, o monks, the king of the mountains, is 84000 yojanas high from the sea level, 84000 yojanas wide, 84000 yojanas deep in the great ocean."

According to relatively early Indian text, Mahabharata, the Mount Meru is located on the North Pole, and is invisible for the human eyes:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m06/m06006.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/db/bk08ch15.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This location of Mount Meru was also advocated by Ven. Migettuwatte Gunananda during Panadura controversy:

http://www.freeratio.org/thearchives/sh ... ?p=1801084" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mount Meru is traditionally depicted in the form of the inverted cone:
http://www.exoticindiaart.com/product/TF41/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.exoticindiaart.com/product/TF18/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://phoenixandturtle.net/images/meru.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Meru" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What mountain, invisible to human eyes, can be located on the North Pole, submerged deep into the ocean, in the form of the inverted cone?

This is the form of the magnetic axis of the Earth:

http://physics.uoregon.edu/~jimbrau/Bra ... G07_19.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://uvs-model.com/pictures/earth_magnetosphere.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In its totality, the magnetic axis is indeed shaped like an hourglass:

Sumeru is said to be shaped like an hourglass, with a top and base of 80,000 yojanas square, but narrowing in the middle (i.e., at a height of 40,000 yojanas) to 20,000 yojanas square.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumeru" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jambudiipa, Pubbavideha, Uttarakuru and Aparagoyaana are four continents (mahaadiipa) of the world-system (cakkavaala).

They are situated on the four sides of Mount Siineru (aka Meru).

So are these continents located on the four sides of the North Pole?

Atthakatha confirms this:

"When the sun rises in this continent (Jambudiipa), it is the middle watch of the night in Aparagoyaana; sunset in Aparagoyaana is midnight in Jambudiipa, and sunrise is noon in Jambudiipa, sunset in Pubbavideha and midnight in Uttarakuru."

"Imasmi~nhi diipe suuriyuggamanakaalo pubbavidehe majjhanhiko hoti, uttarakuruusu attha"ngamanakaalo, aparagoyaane majjhimayaamo. Pubbavidehamhi uggamanakaalo uttarakuruusu majjhanhiko, aparagoyaane attha"ngamanakaalo, idha majjhimayaamo. Uttarakuruusu uggamanakaalo aparagoyaane majjhanhiko, idha attha"ngamanakaalo, pubbavidehe majjhimayaamo. Aparagoyaanadiipe uggamanakaalo idha majjhanhiko, pubbavidehe attha"ngamanakaalo, uttarakuruusu majjhimayaamoti." (DA.iii.868)

"Jambudiipa" is known to be India and its continent. Then remaining continents can be reconstructed then as:

Pubbavideha - Australia,
Uttarakuru - America,
Aparagoyaana - Africa.

Some details preserved by commentarial tradition seem to support such reconstruction.

For example, there is a mention of migration from 'Africa' to 'Eurasia', and no mentions of other migration between continents.

'America' is said to be bigger in extent than 'Africa' and 'Australia', but smaller than 'Eurasia'.

What can we conclude from such reconstruction?

Several instances are given of the Buddha having gone to Uttarakuru for alms. Having obtained his food there, he would go to the Anotatta lake, bathe in its waters and, after the meal, spend the afternoon on its banks (See, e.g., Vin.i.27-8; DhsA.16; DhA.iii.222). The power of going to Uttarakuru for alms is not restricted to the Buddha; Pacceka Buddhas and various ascetics are mentioned as having visited Uttarakuru on their begging rounds (See, e.g., J.v.316; vi.100; MA.i.340; SnA.ii.420). It is considered a mark of great iddhi-power to be able to do this (E.g., Rohita, SA.i.93; also Mil.84).

http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_n ... rakuru.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If this reconstruction is correct, and the information in Vinaya and Atthakatha is truthful, then Buddha has visited America.

Metta,
Dmytro

Dmytro wrote: If this reconstruction is correct, and the information in Vinaya and Atthakatha is truthful, then Buddha has visited America.

Cool, no wonder we have so many Buddha statues in the casinos here in Las Vegas. (just kidding)

Yeah, it depends on which continent is which. And obviously we have to translate the modern "seven continents" into the ultimate four great land masses. The point is, he seemed to be able to teleport to other lands. Is this a correct interpretation? How exactly is it said that the Buddha traveled to the other continent?

Very interesting post, by the way! Thanks so much.

Hi Son,

Son wrote:The point is, he seemed to be able to teleport to other lands. Is this a correct interpretation?

"Teleport" is rather a sci-fi term. He somehow went very fast to other lands.

How exactly is it said that the Buddha traveled to the other continent?

It is said that he just "went" there.

This reminds also of several occasions when the Buddha, having known the thoughts of particular monk, appeared before him and then gave instructions.

Very interesting post, by the way! Thanks so much.

You are welcome.

Dmytro wrote:Hi Son,

Son wrote:The point is, he seemed to be able to teleport to other lands. Is this a correct interpretation?

"Teleport" is rather a sci-fi term. He somehow went very fast to other lands.

How exactly is it said that the Buddha traveled to the other continent?

It is said that he just "went" there.

This reminds also of several occasions when the Buddha, having known the thoughts of particular monk, appeared before him and then gave instructions.

Very interesting post, by the way! Thanks so much.

You are welcome.

Oh I definitely meant it non fictitiously. Tele means to bridge distances and port means to carry distances. I simply meant it in that sense, although yes it's not very accurate. Normally I would imagine he was simply traveling in his mental body, but it indicates that he took alms, bathed and rested. Strange to imagine that 2,600 years ago Gautama might have been receiving alms from aboriginals or in any other country really. This really is terribly interesting though. Why would any of them travel to America I wonder? Is that mentioned? I mean, besides the abundant natural beauty.

Even in the context, it is clear that although the Buddha visited that continent, it is separated by the world ocean. If it really just says "he went there" and nothing more, then there is something we aren't seeing in the context basis. For instance, the authors were aware of something I don't quite see.

Son wrote:Why would any of them travel to America I wonder? Is that mentioned? I mean, besides the abundant natural beauty.

Probably because it was a good place to collect alms.

I love this!

Even if the Pangaea theory might be an obstacle.

Sylvester wrote:I love this!

Even if the Pangaea theory might be an obstacle.

No I think Pangaea is supportive of it. The four continents have to emerge from something, as the world forms. And when put in perspective with Tavatimsa at the summit of Meru, it makes even more sense. That way humans could have appeared sometimes after Pangaea separated, although--who knows--they may have appeared much, much earlier. There's no evidence either way. Only recollection of past lives can verify, or ascension to higher dimensions of the rupaloka to examine other worlds in flux.

Son wrote:The point is, he seemed to be able to teleport to other lands. Is this a correct interpretation?

How exactly is it said that the Buddha traveled to the other continent?

It is said that he just "went" there.

This reminds also of several occasions when the Buddha, having known the thoughts of particular monk, appeared before him and then gave instructions.

The Buddha's self-teleportation to other continents was via iddhividha, one of the 6 supernatural powers (superknowledge) of the Buddha and special arhats.

In the Akankheyya Sutta of the Majjhima-Nikaya, a detailed explanation for each of them is given by the Buddha Himself in the form of instruction as to how they may be acquired.

1. IDDHIVIDHA - THE POWER OF TRANSFORMATION.

The Buddha said "If a monk should frame a wish as follows: "Let me exercise the various magical powers, let me being one become multiform., let me being multiform become one, let me become visible, become invisible, go without hindrance through walls, ramparts or mountains as if through air, let me rise and sink in the ground as if in the water, let me walk on the water as if on unyielding ground, let me travel cross-legged through the air liked a winged bird, let me touch and feel with my hand the moon and the sun mighty and powerful though they are, and let me go without my body even up to the Brahma world," then must he be perfect in the precepts (Sila), bring his thoughts to a state of quiescence (Samadhi), practice diligently the trances (Jhana), attain to insight (Panna) and be frequenter to lonely places."

http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/tinhla01.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note that iddhividha can be attained by anyone who has 'mastered' the first 4 jhanas. Not everyone who has attained the forth jhana has this special ability though. Only those who are perfectly skillful at it. So there are puthujjanas (ordinary people with 10 fetters) who have perfected their 4th jhana practice with iddhividha. And there are bare-insight arhats without one.

Unless the Buddha traveled in one of these levitating vehicles:

http://www.flixxy.com/volkswagen-levitating-car.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Iddhi powers made real!

Dmytro wrote:

Son wrote:Why would any of them travel to America I wonder? Is that mentioned? I mean, besides the abundant natural beauty.

Probably because it was a good place to collect alms.

Apart from offering alms, the highly civilized Mayans in Mesoamerica were probably ready to hear a sermon or two as well. Such an intriguing thought...
(Note that there are many interesting similarities between the Mayan and the Indus Valley civilizations.
http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/483980/files/0101076.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

sutira wrote:

Dmytro wrote:

Son wrote:Why would any of them travel to America I wonder? Is that mentioned? I mean, besides the abundant natural beauty.

Probably because it was a good place to collect alms.

Apart from offering alms, the highly civilized Mayans in Mesoamerica were probably ready to hear a sermon or two as well. Such an intriguing thought...
(Note that there are many interesting similarities between the Mayan and the Indus Valley civilizations.
http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/483980/files/0101076.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

This was my thought too! Intriguing indeed...

very interesting

thanks

For some reason a lot of people think that Jambudvipa is the human planet and none one of four continents on the planet. They think that humans only live in Jambudvipa, supposedly based on the idea that the Dharma is only taught in Jambudvipa. But where does the evidence come from that Jambudvipa is where all humans live...? This is a very common opinion that I see. What's more, sometimes I see people equating Saha world to Jambudvipa, and then sometimes describing the Saha world as our galaxy... From what I understand--and please correct me--the Buddha used the term "saha world" very ambiguously. Also isn't it made clear that humans live on all four continents around Meru?

Hi Son,

Son wrote:What's more, sometimes I see people equating Saha world to Jambudvipa, and then sometimes describing the Saha world as our galaxy... From what I understand--and please correct me--the Buddha used the term "saha world" very ambiguously.

The Buddha didn't use this term. AFAIK, it is from Mahayana Mahaparinirvana sutra:
http://www.nirvanasutra.net/nirvanasutraa2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also isn't it made clear that humans live on all four continents around Meru?

Yes, it is made clear.

Many Buddhist terms gradually changed their meaning, being transferred between countries and generations.