Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

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Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Postby Dmytro » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:15 pm

Hello Pali friends,

First, what type of compound is "paṭicca-samuppāda".

Ole Holten Pind wrote:

This compound is somewhat peculiar. pa.ticca is an absolutive. Now
absolutives do not normally occur as first member in compounds. In the
present case we need a syntactical complement to understand it e.g. a noun
in the accusative like hetum or kara.nam or any other term in the
accusative. As you can imagine the fact that absolutives normally denote
actions preceding the action denoted by the finite verb, provided that the
two actions have the same agent, this particular compound has generated a
heated controversy among Buddhists interested in grammar, because the action
denoted by the absolutive normally precedes that of the finite verb. Now all
we can say is that pa.ticcasamuppaada means "origination dependent (on
something). " The usual translation "dependent origination" is meaningless
and ungrammatical, besides being not very intelligent considering the
canonical context, in addition to the grammatical constraints on the
semantics of absolutives. Cf. the vinaya term pa.ticcakamma which means " an
action that is due (to someone else, i.e. caused by someone else). " For
instance, the crime that someone who has made you commit would be a
pa.ticcakamma. In short, it is a "syntactical compound" in the sense that it
is syntactically dependent upon an explicit or implicit term that is
independent and syntactically external to the terms of the compound.
Therefore the peculiar term "syntactical compound."


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Rett Thiele wrote:

My best guess is that it would be considered a tappurisa of a sort called 'nicca' (unanalysable). However it's obviously not a 'classic tappurisa' (suddhatappurisa) where the first member stand in an oblique case relation to the latter member when analysed.

As far as I can see, Aggava.msa (author of Saddaniiti) doesn't really take a clear stand on this point. In Paa.nini, tatpuru.sa has the more general sense 'determinative compound' in addition to the more restricted sense of a compound where the first element stands in an oblique case relation to the second when resolved (the latter being the one we are most familiar with). In this system, pa.ticcasamuppaada can belong to a class of irregular determinative (tatpuru.sa) cpds called mayuuravy.amsaka-s. Some examples of the latter (ashtadhyayi II.1.72) are pitvaasthiraka and nipatyarohi.nii. (having drunk, steady? I.e. able to hold his drink? Or strong after drinking?) and (having fallen, stood up? Standing up after falling down?).

So far, however, I haven't seen this more general sense of tappurisa explicitly stated in Aggava.msa. He goes straight to defining tappurisa as a compund with an oblique (from accusative onwards, lit. amaadayo, having the (ending -am and so forth) relation between the words.

My assumption (from Kahrs) is that Aggava.msa has borrowed material from mainstream Sanskrit grammar without always maintaining its structural integrity or systematic function in its context. Aggava.msa was more of a compiler than a systematizer or synthesizer.

The main place where Aggava.msa mentions the cpd pa.ticcasamuppada (and the similar upaadaayaruupa.m/upaadaaruupa.m) is in sutta 683 of the suttamaalaa, where he states that compounds beginning with an absolutive are "niccasamaasa". This is a type of compound (samaasa) which is always (nicca.m) a compound. The point is that you can't resolve the compound into its component parts. (at least not using only the words in the compound). (in Sanskrit: nityasamaasa)

As Ole pointed out, the analysis of pa.ticcasamuppaada would require another word , for example "hetu.m paticca samuppada". Aggava.msa illustrates the same idea in this way: a~n~nama~n~na.m pa.ticca sahite dhamme uppaadetii ti pa.ticcasamuppaado. "Mutually depending on connected things it arises" = dependent origination.

Another sort of compound which is considered 'nicca' is what is called an upapadasamaasa "prefix (upapada) compound". In Pa.nini this is specifically a compound where a word is prefixed to a verbal root, and the root becomes an action noun through addition of a suffix, but where that action noun could not exist apart from the prefix. Ex: kumbhakaaro: jar maker, potter.

This upapadasamaasa, which is nicca, is included in the discussion of tappurisas, not surprisingly since the is an accusative relation between 'making' and the thing made (the kumbha).

Since this latter 'niccasamaasa' is taken as an example of a tappurisa, I would be inclined to take cpds whose first member is an absolutive also as such, though again, in the wider sense of tappurisa....

...Sutta 707 appears to go into this.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/9542
and
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/9543

Alan McClure wrote:

Of course, much of the above exchange is dealing with grammar and technical terms, etc. However, there is an important reason that I wanted to go into all of this. If it is indeed true that "pa.ticca-samuppada" is different from a "normal" determinative compound, i.e. it is a "syntactical compound," then might it be translated differently too?

Dr. Pind notes that this idea is a source of Buddhist debate, and I can see why, for it does indeed seem that the common translation of "Dependent Origination" is not quite accurate. Again, Dr. Pind says that:

"all we can say is that pa.ticcasamuppaada means "origination dependent (on something). The usual translation "dependent origination" is meaningless and ungrammatical, besides being not very intelligent considering the canonical context, in addition to the grammatical constraints on the
semantics of absolutives."


"Origination dependent upon [something]," however, is not a very smooth translation. However, it seemed to me that it is more specific and accurate, so I started to think about what could replace the "something" so that the translation would sound better and would be more accurate grammatically, etc. than "Dependent Origination." Since the compound is actually lacking a concept, the "something" the idea was to figure out what that something should be in English.

As I thought about different possibilities, I recalled a recent post by Dmytro where he mentions that "paccaya" in the context of pa.ticca-samuppada can be translated as 'requisite condition,' no doubt focusing on the fact that other conditions can be present as well, but that the preceeding condition, or the one that the orgination of the following condition is dependent upon, is required.

So, it occured to me, that along these lines, a good translation of pa.ticca-samuppada might be:

"Origination that is dependent upon a requisite condition"
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Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Postby Dmytro » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:21 pm

A definitive sutta on this subject:

Paccayasuttaṃ

20. Sāvatthiyaṃ viharati…pe… ‘‘paṭiccasamuppādañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi paṭiccasamuppanne ca dhamme. Taṃ suṇātha, sādhukaṃ manasi karotha, bhāsissāmī’’ti. ‘‘Evaṃ, bhante’’ti kho te bhikkhū bhagavato paccassosuṃ. Bhagavā etadavoca –

‘‘Katamo ca, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamuppādo? Jātipaccayā, bhikkhave, jarāmaraṇaṃ. Uppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ anuppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. Taṃ tathāgato abhisambujjhati abhisameti. Abhisambujjhitvā abhisametvā ācikkhati deseti paññāpeti paṭṭhapeti vivarati vibhajati uttānīkaroti. ‘Passathā’ti cāha – ‘jātipaccayā, bhikkhave, jarāmaraṇaṃ’’’.

‘‘Bhavapaccayā, bhikkhave, jāti…pe… upādānapaccayā, bhikkhave, bhavo… taṇhāpaccayā, bhikkhave, upādānaṃ… vedanāpaccayā, bhikkhave, taṇhā… phassapaccayā, bhikkhave, vedanā… saḷāyatanapaccayā, bhikkhave, phasso… nāmarūpapaccayā, bhikkhave, saḷāyatanaṃ… viññāṇapaccayā, bhikkhave, nāmarūpaṃ… saṅkhārapaccayā, bhikkhave, viññāṇaṃ… avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā uppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ anuppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. Taṃ tathāgato abhisambujjhati abhisameti. Abhisambujjhitvā abhisametvā ācikkhati deseti paññāpeti paṭṭhapeti vivarati vibhajati uttānīkaroti. ‘Passathā’ti cāha ‘avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā’. Iti kho, bhikkhave, yā tatra tathatā avitathatā anaññathatā idappaccayatā – ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamuppādo.

‘‘Katame ca, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā? Jarāmaraṇaṃ, bhikkhave, aniccaṃ saṅkhataṃ paṭiccasamuppannaṃ khayadhammaṃ vayadhammaṃ virāgadhammaṃ nirodhadhammaṃ. Jāti, bhikkhave, aniccā saṅkhatā paṭiccasamuppannā khayadhammā vayadhammā virāgadhammā nirodhadhammā. Bhavo, bhikkhave, anicco saṅkhato paṭiccasamuppanno khayadhammo vayadhammo virāgadhammo nirodhadhammo. Upādānaṃ bhikkhave…pe… taṇhā, bhikkhave… vedanā, bhikkhave… phasso, bhikkhave… saḷāyatanaṃ, bhikkhave… nāmarūpaṃ, bhikkhave… viññāṇaṃ, bhikkhave… saṅkhārā, bhikkhave… avijjā, bhikkhave, aniccā saṅkhatā paṭiccasamuppannā khayadhammā vayadhammā virāgadhammā nirodhadhammā. Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā.

‘‘Yato kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvakassa ‘ayañca paṭiccasamuppādo, ime ca paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā’ yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhā honti, so vata pubbantaṃ vā paṭidhāvissati – ‘ahosiṃ nu kho ahaṃ [nu khvāhaṃ (syā. kaṃ. pī. ka.)] atītamaddhānaṃ, nanu kho ahosiṃ atītamaddhānaṃ, kiṃ nu kho ahosiṃ atītamaddhānaṃ, kathaṃ nu kho ahosiṃ atītamaddhānaṃ, kiṃ hutvā kiṃ ahosiṃ nu kho ahaṃ atītamaddhāna’nti; aparantaṃ vā upadhāvissati [apadhāvissati (ka.)] – ‘bhavissāmi nu kho ahaṃ anāgatamaddhānaṃ, nanu kho bhavissāmi anāgatamaddhānaṃ, kiṃ nu kho bhavissāmi anāgatamaddhānaṃ, kathaṃ nu kho bhavissāmi anāgatamaddhānaṃ, kiṃ hutvā kiṃ bhavissāmi nu kho ahaṃ anāgatamaddhāna’nti; etarahi vā paccuppannaṃ addhānaṃ ajjhattaṃ kathaṃkathī bhavissati – ‘ahaṃ nu khosmi, no nu khosmi, kiṃ nu khosmi, kathaṃ nu khosmi, ayaṃ nu kho satto kuto āgato, so kuhiṃ gamissatī’ti – netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati. Taṃ kissa hetu? Tathāhi, bhikkhave, ariyasāvakassa ayañca paṭiccasamuppādo ime ca paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhā’’ti.

S ii 25
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Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Postby Dmytro » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:39 pm

The word implied in this compound is 'paccaya' - (requisite) condition.

"Yaṃ yadeva, bhikkhave, paccayaṃ paṭicca uppajjati viññāṇaṃ, tena teneva viññāṇaṃtveva saṅkhyaṃ gacchati"

M i 258

As for 'pa.ticca', I think the most exact translation would be 'conditioned', as in:

conditioned reflex: an acquired response that is under the control of (conditional on the occurrence of) a stimulus.

'Dependent' is too vague for the exact kind of relation implied, i.e. relation of requisite condition.


As for 'samuppāda', the question is what 'sam-' means here.

Paccaya sutta (presented above) explains 'samuppāda' as simply "uppādā".

Rhys-Davids'es dictionary says that 'sam-' doesn't mean anything special here, so 'samuppaada' is just 'arising'.

In suttas the verb 'samuppajjati' means just 'arises'.

'Origination' does not quite fit phenomena that arise and cease.

So I suggest a translation 'conditioned arising'. It preserves well implied meaning "arising conditioned by conditions", wihout being redundant.

The extended version would be 'arising on the basis of requisite conditions'.

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Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:09 am

Dmytro wrote:So I suggest a translation 'conditioned arising'. It preserves well implied meaning "arising conditioned by conditions", wihout being redundant.

The extended version would be 'arising on the basis of requisite conditions'.

Metta, Dmytro


Thanks, that's useful. I usually think of paticcasamuppada as "dependent arising", ie arising in dependence on requisite conditions. Do you think this captures it as well as "conditioned arising"?

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Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Postby Sobeh » Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:24 pm

It's awesome, as I didn't think of Paṭiccasamuppāda as having the linguistic complexity it does. What was Ananda thinking, saying it was easy!
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Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Postby Sanghamitta » Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:42 pm

Very interesting, once more we are in your debt Dymtro.
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Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Postby Dmytro » Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:29 pm

Hi Spiny,

Spiny O'Norman wrote:Thanks, that's useful. I usually think of paticcasamuppada as "dependent arising", ie arising in dependence on requisite conditions. Do you think this captures it as well as "conditioned arising"?


Glad this helps. IMHO, "conditioned arising" is more likely to be understood properly, since "dependent" has also a number of other meanings, whereas the primary meaning of 'conditioned' hits the mark.

de·pend·ent

–adjective
1. relying on someone or something else for aid, support, etc.
2. conditioned or determined by something else; contingent: Our trip is dependent on the weather.
3. subordinate; subject: a dependent territory.
4. Grammar . not used in isolation; used only in connection with other forms. In I walked out when the bell rang, when the bell rang is a dependent clause. Compare independent ( def. 14 ) , main1 ( def. 4 ) .
5. hanging down; pendent.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dependent


con·di·tioned

–adjective
1. existing under or subject to conditions.
2. characterized by a predictable or consistent pattern of behavior or thought as a result of having been subjected to certain circumstances or conditions.
3. Psychology . proceeding from or dependent on a conditioning of the individual; learned; acquired: conditioned behavior patterns. Compare unconditioned ( def. 2 ) .
4. made suitable for a given purpose.
5. air-conditioned.
6. accustomed; inured.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conditioned

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Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:43 am

Dmytro wrote:Hi Spiny,

Spiny O'Norman wrote:Thanks, that's useful. I usually think of paticcasamuppada as "dependent arising", ie arising in dependence on requisite conditions. Do you think this captures it as well as "conditioned arising"?


Glad this helps. IMHO, "conditioned arising" is more likely to be understood properly, since "dependent" has also a number of other meanings, whereas the primary meaning of 'conditioned' hits the mark.



I'm not sure. Is the aspect of dependency essential in paticcasamuppada? To me "conditioned arising" suggests more that B is shaped by A, rather than B arising as a result of A.
Maybe "conditional arising" would capture it better?

Is it worth looking at an example from the 12 links, eg the relationship between feeling and craving?

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Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Postby Dmytro » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:19 pm

Hi Spiny,

Spiny O'Norman wrote:I'm not sure. Is the aspect of dependency essential in paticcasamuppada? To me "conditioned arising" suggests more that B is shaped by A, rather than B arising as a result of A.


For example, the craving doesn't arise as a result of feeling. Feeling is just a requisite condition without which the craving can't arise.

As Ven. Nyanatiloka writes:

I think that after what you have heard just now, it will not be necessary to tell you that P.S. is not intended, as various scholars in the West have imagined, as an explanation of the primary beginning of all things; and that its first link, avijja or ignorance, is not to be considered the causeless first principle out of which, in the course of time, all physical and conscious life has evolved. P.S. simply teaches the conditionality, or dependent nature, of all the manifold mental and physical phenomena of existence; of everything that happens, be it in the realm of the physical or the mental. P.S. shows that the sum of mental and physical phenomena known by the conventional name "person" or "individual" is not at all the mere play of blind chance; but that each phenomenon in this process of existence is entirely dependent upon other phenomena as conditions; and that therefore with the removal of those phenomena that form the conditions for rebirth and suffering, rebirth and therewith all suffering will necessarily cease and come to an end.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 4.html#ch3

Maybe "conditional arising" would capture it better?


IMHO, this word doesn't convey the relationship with another specific process as the requisite condition.

con·di·tion·al

–adjective
1. imposing, containing, subject to, or depending on a condition or conditions; not absolute; made or allowed on certain terms: conditional acceptance.
2. Grammar . (of a sentence, clause, mood, or word) involving or expressing a condition, as the first clause in the sentence If it rains, he won't go.
3. Logic .
a. (of a proposition) asserting that the existence or occurrence of one thing or event depends on the existence or occurrence of another thing or event; hypothetical.
b. (of a syllogism) containing at least one conditional proposition as a premise.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conditional

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Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:21 am

Dmytro wrote:Hi Spiny,

For example, the craving doesn't arise as a result of feeling. Feeling is just a requisite condition without which the craving can't arise.



OK, but if feeling is a requisite condition for craving, isn't this the same as saying that craving arises in dependence on feeling? Or that the arising of craving is conditional on feeling?
Or does it also have the sense that the quality of the feeling affects ("conditions" ) the quality of the craving? So for example a neutral feeling wouldn't lead to craving, whereas a pleasant feeling would?

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Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Postby Dmytro » Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:53 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:OK, but if feeling is a requisite condition for craving, isn't this the same as saying that craving arises in dependence on feeling? Or that the arising of craving is conditional on feeling?


Yes, that's another way of formulating it. The question is which word would be more to the point.

Or does it also have the sense that the quality of the feeling affects ("conditions" ) the quality of the craving? So for example a neutral feeling wouldn't lead to craving, whereas a pleasant feeling would?


It seems that you imply the meaning:

con·di·tioned
2. characterized by a predictable or consistent pattern of behavior or thought as a result of having been subjected to certain circumstances or conditions.
3. Psychology . proceeding from or dependent on a conditioning of the individual; learned; acquired: conditioned behavior patterns.

while the primary meaning is:

con·di·tioned
1. existing under or subject to conditions.

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