bodom wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:59 pm
From Nyanatiloka:
...
These two kinds of kāma are called 1. kilesa-kāma, i.e. kāma as a mental defilement, 2. vatthu-kāma, i.e. kāma as the object-base of sensuality; first in MNid.. I, p. 1, and frequently in the commentaries.
Nyana wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:12 pm
Sylvester wrote:Well, Geoff, would you care to explain what the Mahaniddesa was discussing in relation to the extract you set out above? You've pulled out only a tiny snippet.
I quoted the passage explaining the commentarial vatthukāma-s which pertain to the kāmaguna-s.
Rupert Gethin wrote:
Early on (e.g. already in Peṭ and in Nidd I) the exegetical tradition explains kāma-s as twofold: (1) ‘desires' as affliction/defilement (kilesa-kāma), namely taṇhā for the objects of the five senses, and (2) ‘desires’ as the objects of those desires (vatthu-kāma), namely the objects of the five senses themselves (visible forms, sounds, smells, tastes, the objects of touch). So I take vivicc’ eva kāmehi to mean ‘quite separate/secluded from desires for the objects of the senses / from the objects of sense-desires. That certain words in Pali/Sanskrit can mean both the action and the object that action is directed towards is quite common. In fact this happens in all languages. So in English ’thought’ can mean both ’thinking’ and the object of thinking (what is thought about); ‘attachment’ can mean both being attached and then thing one is attached to; kāma in Pali is exactly like this, even though the English word ‘desire’, which is often used to translate kāma, is not so.
The relevant passages:
kāmesu sattāti kāmā dvidhā — vatthukāmā ca kilesakāmā ca, tattha kilesakāmā kāmataṇhā kāmataṇhāya yuttā bhavanti rūpataṇhā bhavataṇhā lakkhaṇena hārena, saṃyojane vajjamapassamānāti saṃyojanassa. yo tattha chandarāgo tassa kiṃ padaṭṭhānaṃ? sukhā vedanā dve ca indriyāni — sukhindriyañca somanassindriyañca. iti sukhāya vedanāya gahitāya tayopi vedanā gahitā honti. vedanākkhandhe gahite sabbe pañcakkhandhā gahitā honti. rūpasaddagandharasaphoṭṭhabbā gahitā, vatthukāmesu gahitesu sabbāni cha bāhirāni āyatanāni gahitāni honti.
KN Peṭ, 7. hārasampātabhūmi, para. 24
♦ kāmaṃ kāmayamānassāti kāmāti uddānato dve kāmā — vatthukāmā ca kilesakāmā ca. katame vatthukāmā? manāpikā rūpā manāpikā saddā manāpikā gandhā manāpikā rasā manāpikā phoṭṭhabbā; attharaṇā pāvuraṇā dāsidāsā ajeḷakā kukkuṭasūkarā hatthigavāssavaḷavā khettaṃ vatthu hiraññaṃ suvaṇṇaṃ gāmanigamarājadhāniyo raṭṭhañca janapado ca koso ca koṭṭhāgārañca, yaṃ kiñci rajanīyaṃ vatthu — vatthukāmā.
♦ api ca atītā kāmā anāgatā kāmā paccuppannā kāmā; ajjhattā kāmā bahiddhā kāmā ajjhattabahiddhā kāmā; hīnā kāmā majjhimā kāmā paṇītā kāmā; āpāyikā kāmā mānusikā kāmā dibbā kāmā paccupaṭṭhitā kāmā; nimmitā kāmā animmitā kāmā paranimmitā kāmā; pariggahitā kāmā, apariggahitā kāmā, mamāyitā kāmā, amamāyitā kāmā; sabbepi kāmāvacarā dhammā, sabbepi rūpāvacarā dhammā, sabbepi arūpāvacarā dhammā, taṇhāvatthukā taṇhārammaṇā kāmanīyaṭṭhena rajanīyaṭṭhena madanīyaṭṭhena kāmā — ime vuccanti vatthukāmā.
♦ katame kilesakāmā? chando kāmo rāgo kāmo chandarāgo kāmo; saṅkappo kāmo rāgo kāmo saṅkapparāgo kāmo; yo kāmesu kāmacchando kāmarāgo kāmanandī kāmataṇhā kāmasneho kāmapariḷāho kāmamucchā kāmajjhosānaṃ kāmogho kāmayogo kāmupādānaṃ kāmacchandanīvaraṇaṃ.
♦ “addasaṃ kāma te mūlaṃ, saṅkappā kāma jāyasi.
♦ na taṃ saṅkappayissāmi, evaṃ kāma na hohisī”ti —
♦ ime vuccanti kilesakāmā.
KN Nidd I, 1. kāmasuttaniddeso, para. 4