Exact meaning of "Khīyati nopacīyati, evam so caratī sato"?

[starter]

Dear Friends,

Thanks a lot for your previous help. I'd like to know how to translate the following, especially the 2nd sentence:

“Yathāssa passato rūpam, sevato cāpi vedanam;
Khīyati nopacīyati, evam so caratī sato.
Evam apacinato dukkham, santike nibbāna vuccati.”
-- from Mālukyaputta Sutta

The correct understanding of this stanza is very important for insight meditation. Your kind contribution would be highly appreciated.

All the best for your Dhamma practice. With metta,

Starter

[mikenz66]

Hi Starter,

Keep in mind that this is verse, so it not necessarily straightforward to translate.
For those of us who don't have an encyclopaedic memory, it's SN 35.95 Maalunkyaputta Sutta.

Mahasi Sayadaw's discussion of the Sutta:
http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Malukya ... putta.html

“Yathāssa passato rūpaṃ, sevato cāpi vedanaṃ;
Khīyati nopacīyati, evaṃ so caratī sato.
Evaṃ apacinato dukkhaṃ, santike nibbāna vuccati.”

“Looking at a visible object, a meditator just sees it and just feels that
he sees it, without conceptualising it. With this, suffering ceases.
One who practises in this way is said to be near to nibbāna.”

Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:

"One fares mindfully in such a way
That even as one sees the form,
And while one undergoes a feeling,
[Suffering] is exhausted, not built up. [*]
for one dismantling suffering thus,
Nibbana is said to be close by."

[*] BB notes that the subject [suffering] is implied, not explicitly stated.

Khiyati no paciyati. No subject is provided but Spk suggests both suffering and the various defilements would be appropriate.

Some translation of SN 35.95 Maalunkyaputta Sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

While one is seeing a form
— and even experiencing feeling —
it falls away and doesn't accumulate.
Thus one fares mindfully.
Thus not amassing stress,
one is said to be
in the presence of Unbinding.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

If he just observes the things he sees,
Not reacting to their shape or form,
He'll pull down the pile, not build it up.
Mindfully proceeding on his way,
Heaping up no store of pain and woe:
Then for him Nibbaana's very near.

Mike

[starter]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for being so helpful. BB's translation makes more sense to me:

One fares mindfully in such a way
That even as one sees the form,
And while one undergoes a feeling,
[Suffering or defilements] is exhausted, not built up.
for one dismantling suffering thus,
Nibbana is said to be close by."

But in which way one fares mindfully [according to this sutta? Would you mind providing some more info [on the sutta]? I read Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw's explanation (non-conceptualization) but would like to know other translations/explanations. Metta,

Starter

[mikenz66]

Hi Starter,

As far as the Pali is concerned, since I'm not an expert on Pali I've simply collected the translations that I have access to and given the caveat that this a verse section of a dense Sutta so any clarification would need an expert (not just a Pali dictionary...).

As to exactly how one maintains such mindfulness, that's more a question of meditative approach than Pali. Obviously it's a key question, but it might be better pursued in the Meditation forum, e.g. in threads such as:
The Practical Aspects of Establishing Mindfulness
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=7110


Mike

[starter]

Hi Mike,

I mean the translations of the previous verses of the SN 35.95 Maalunkyaputta Sutta which explains "One fares mindfully in such a way". I don't mean general discussions on mindfulness or insight meditation. Metta,

Starter

[mikenz66]

Hi Starter, here is the previous verse:

Bhikkhu Bodhi:

"When, firmly mindful, one sees a form,
One is not inflamed by lust for forms;
On experiences it with a dispassionate mind
and does not remain holding it tightly."

Mahasi Sayadaw: http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Malukya ... putta.html

“Na so rajjati rūpesu, rūpam disvā patissato;
Virattacitto vedeti, tañca nājjhossa titthati.”

“Passion remains undeveloped in him who recollects with mindfulness the form that he has seen. Thus freed from lust, he refuses to imbibe it.”

Thanissaro Bhikkhu: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Not impassioned with forms
— seeing a form with mindfulness firm —
dispassioned in mind,
one knows
and doesn't remain fastened there.

Maurice O'Connell Walshe: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

He who's not inflamed by things he sees,
Seeing forms retains his mindfulness,
Not in passion's grip, simply feels,
On him clinging cannot get a hold.

Mike

[Sylvester]

Mike has a really good point.

The missing word (furnished by the English equivalent within parentheses) was probably cut out for metri causa to keep the sentence within the 8-syllable "siloka" verse metre employed in both sets of verse.

Sometimes, it's quite interesting to see what happens when the metre cannot be maintained, and we will really have to look deeper to see if it was deliberate (to emphasise a doctrinal point) or simply a case of too many syllables that could not be left out.

[mikenz66]

Thanks Sylvester for explaining a bit more detail of why the subject was omitted in that line.

It's interesting that both Walshe and Ven Thanissaro left the subject rather indeterminate whereas Vens Mahasi and Bodhi followed the suggestion of the commentary. It gives quite a different feel to the verse.


Mike

[starter]

Hi Mike,

Thanks again for the big help. I wonder if it's better to translated the omitted subject as "craving" instead of "suffering" in the following verse:

"One fares mindfully in such a way
That even as one sees the form,
And while one undergoes a feeling,
[Suffering] is exhausted, not built up. [*]
for one dismantling suffering thus,
Nibbana is said to be close by."

The following verse seems to suggest that one should fare mindfully with a dispassionate mind (e.g. by seeing the form as anicca/dukkha/anatta) instead of by bare attention/non-conceptualization.

"When, firmly mindful, one sees a form,
One is not inflamed by lust for forms;
On experiences it with a dispassionate mind
and does not remain holding it tightly." -- BB translation

"Not impassioned with forms
— seeing a form with mindfulness firm —
dispassioned in mind,
one knows
and doesn't remain fastened there. " -- BT translation

It seems to me that non-conceptualization occurs at the end of the path as the end result of our practice, instead of serving as the means of practice at the beginning of our path.

Metta,

Starter

[mikenz66]

Hi Started,

Thanks again for the big help. I wonder if it's better to translated the omitted subject as "craving" instead of "suffering" in the following verse: ...

Well, Bhikkhu Bodhi's comments indicated that the Commentary suggests that it could refer to things other than dukkha:

Khiyati no paciyati. No subject is provided but Spk suggests both suffering and the various defilements would be appropriate.

Since I've only a sketchy knowledge of Pali, I can't comment further.


Mike

[yuttadhammo]

Hi Started,
Well, Bhikkhu Bodhi's comments indicated that the Commentary suggests that it could refer to things other than dukkha:

Khiyati no paciyati. No subject is provided but Spk suggests both suffering and the various defilements would be appropriate.

Since I've only a sketchy knowledge of Pali, I can't comment further.

khīyatīti khayaṃ gacchati. kiṃ taṃ? dukkhampi kilesajātampi.

-SA 4 - 1. saḷāyatanasaṃyuttaṃ - 10. saḷavaggo - 2. mālukyaputtasuttavaṇṇanā

"khīyati" means "goes to destruction." What is that [which goes to destruction]? Both dukkha and arisen kilesa.