Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?

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Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?

Postby starter » Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:16 pm

Hi Teachers/Friends,

I wonder what "nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka" really means, the dry insight meditators without jhana, or with only the 4 rupa jhanas but not formless jhanas?

Metta,

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Re: Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?

Postby Dmytro » Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:58 am

Hi Starter,

It's dry insight meditators.

Metta, Dmytro

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Re: Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?

Postby starter » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:24 pm

Hello Dmytro,

Thanks for your input. Then why in the susima sutta "nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka" appears to be translated into those "liberated by insight", with the 4 rupa jhanas but no formless jhanas (as I understand)?

I guess it's probably because of the good intention of the translators ...

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Re: Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?

Postby daverupa » Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:46 pm

starter wrote:Hello Dmytro,

Thanks for your input. Then why in the susima sutta "nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka" appears to be translated into those "liberated by insight", with the 4 rupa jhanas but no formless jhanas (as I understand)?

I guess it's probably because of the good intention of the translators ...

Metta,

Starter


It might be because the formless jhanas are somewhat extra-canonical.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:41 am

daverupa wrote:It might be because the formless jhanas are somewhat extra-canonical.

Really. They are in numerous Suttas, such as MN111: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:anjali:
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Re: Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?

Postby Dmytro » Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:55 pm

Hello Starter,

starter wrote:Thanks for your input. Then why in the susima sutta "nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka" appears to be translated into those "liberated by insight", with the 4 rupa jhanas but no formless jhanas (as I understand)?


To start with, there's no "nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka" in the Susima sutta.

This expression is used in the commentarial explanation of the word "Paññāvimuttā" (liberated by wisdom) of this sutta:

'Paññāvimuttā kho mayaṃ, āvuso'ti, āvuso, mayaṃ nijjhānakā sukkhavipassakā paññāmatteneva vimuttāti dasseti.

Second, why do you think that "those "liberated by insight", with the 4 rupa jhanas but no formless jhanas (as I understand)?"

See: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_ ... imutti.htm
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Metta, Dmytro

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Re: Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?

Postby daverupa » Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:30 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
daverupa wrote:It might be because the formless jhanas are somewhat extra-canonical.

Really. They are in numerous Suttas, such as MN111: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:anjali:
Mike


I'm not saying they aren't thoroughly attested, simply that they aren't always part of Sutta explanations of sammasamadhi - hence, "somewhat".
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?

Postby starter » Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:31 pm

Hello Dymtro,

Many thanks for your helpful input.

"This expression is used in the commentarial explanation of the word "Paññāvimuttā" (liberated by wisdom) of this sutta [which sutta?]:

'Paññāvimuttā kho mayaṃ, āvuso'ti, āvuso, mayaṃ nijjhānakā sukkhavipassakā paññāmatteneva vimuttāti dasseti." [what does this sentence mean?]

Second, why do you think that "those "liberated by insight", with the 4 rupa jhanas but no formless jhanas (as I understand)?"
-- understood from reading the English translation of the Susima sutta:

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form [the formless jhanas]?"

"No, friend."

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Re: Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:41 am

daverupa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:
daverupa wrote:It might be because the formless jhanas are somewhat extra-canonical.

Really. They are in numerous Suttas, such as MN111: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:anjali:
Mike


I'm not saying they aren't thoroughly attested, simply that they aren't always part of Sutta explanations of sammasamadhi - hence, "somewhat".

I don't see how that makes them "somewhat extra-canonical". There are many things that are not in "all suttas on the subject", (such as the 12 links in the DO chain). Certainly, it's an interesting topic to figure out what is "more original", but I think that it requires quite a lot more sophistication to do properly...

As I said, the formless attainments are quite common. I get 41 hits from access to insight suttas on "infinitude of space":
http://www.google.com/search?q=infinitu ... be7d3ce775

:anjali:
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Re: Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?

Postby Dmytro » Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:24 am

Hello Starter,

starter wrote:"This expression is used in the commentarial explanation of the word "Paññāvimuttā" (liberated by wisdom) of this sutta [which sutta?]:


Susima sutta.

'Paññāvimuttā kho mayaṃ, āvuso'ti, āvuso, mayaṃ nijjhānakā sukkhavipassakā paññāmatteneva vimuttāti dasseti." [what does this sentence mean?]


"Wisdom-liberated" is explained here as liberated by wisdom only, dry-insight meditators, without jhanas.

Second, why do you think that "those "liberated by insight", with the 4 rupa jhanas but no formless jhanas (as I understand)?"
-- understood from reading the English translation of the Susima sutta:

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form [the formless jhanas]?"

"No, friend."


Indeed those "liberated by insight" have not developed the formless states. The degree to which they have developed rupa jhanas may vary.

Metta,

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Re: Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?

Postby starter » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:06 pm

Dear Dymtro,

Many thanks for your translation:
'Paññāvimuttā kho mayaṃ, āvuso'ti, āvuso, mayaṃ nijjhānakā sukkhavipassakā paññāmatteneva vimuttāti dasseti." [what does this sentence mean?]

"Wisdom-liberated" is explained here as liberated by wisdom only, dry-insight meditators, without jhanas."

-- Haha, this translation is in perfect agreement with the early Chinese agama version of the susima sutta.


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