Hi Teachers/Friends,
I wonder what "nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka" really means, the dry insight meditators without jhana, or with only the 4 rupa jhanas but not formless jhanas?
Metta,
Starter
Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?
Re: Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?
Hi Starter,
It's dry insight meditators.
Metta, Dmytro
It's dry insight meditators.
Metta, Dmytro
Re: Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?
Hello Dmytro,
Thanks for your input. Then why in the susima sutta "nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka" appears to be translated into those "liberated by insight", with the 4 rupa jhanas but no formless jhanas (as I understand)?
I guess it's probably because of the good intention of the translators ...
Metta,
Starter
Thanks for your input. Then why in the susima sutta "nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka" appears to be translated into those "liberated by insight", with the 4 rupa jhanas but no formless jhanas (as I understand)?
I guess it's probably because of the good intention of the translators ...
Metta,
Starter
Re: Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?
It might be because the formless jhanas are somewhat extra-canonical.starter wrote:Hello Dmytro,
Thanks for your input. Then why in the susima sutta "nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka" appears to be translated into those "liberated by insight", with the 4 rupa jhanas but no formless jhanas (as I understand)?
I guess it's probably because of the good intention of the translators ...
Metta,
Starter
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?
Really. They are in numerous Suttas, such as MN111: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;daverupa wrote: It might be because the formless jhanas are somewhat extra-canonical.
Mike
Re: Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?
Hello Starter,
This expression is used in the commentarial explanation of the word "Paññāvimuttā" (liberated by wisdom) of this sutta:
'Paññāvimuttā kho mayaṃ, āvuso'ti, āvuso, mayaṃ nijjhānakā sukkhavipassakā paññāmatteneva vimuttāti dasseti.
Second, why do you think that "those "liberated by insight", with the 4 rupa jhanas but no formless jhanas (as I understand)?"
See: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_ ... imutti.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Metta, Dmytro
To start with, there's no "nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka" in the Susima sutta.starter wrote:Thanks for your input. Then why in the susima sutta "nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka" appears to be translated into those "liberated by insight", with the 4 rupa jhanas but no formless jhanas (as I understand)?
This expression is used in the commentarial explanation of the word "Paññāvimuttā" (liberated by wisdom) of this sutta:
'Paññāvimuttā kho mayaṃ, āvuso'ti, āvuso, mayaṃ nijjhānakā sukkhavipassakā paññāmatteneva vimuttāti dasseti.
Second, why do you think that "those "liberated by insight", with the 4 rupa jhanas but no formless jhanas (as I understand)?"
See: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_ ... imutti.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Metta, Dmytro
Re: Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?
I'm not saying they aren't thoroughly attested, simply that they aren't always part of Sutta explanations of sammasamadhi - hence, "somewhat".mikenz66 wrote:Really. They are in numerous Suttas, such as MN111: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;daverupa wrote: It might be because the formless jhanas are somewhat extra-canonical.
Mike
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?
Hello Dymtro,
Many thanks for your helpful input.
"This expression is used in the commentarial explanation of the word "Paññāvimuttā" (liberated by wisdom) of this sutta [which sutta?]:
'Paññāvimuttā kho mayaṃ, āvuso'ti, āvuso, mayaṃ nijjhānakā sukkhavipassakā paññāmatteneva vimuttāti dasseti." [what does this sentence mean?]
Second, why do you think that "those "liberated by insight", with the 4 rupa jhanas but no formless jhanas (as I understand)?"
-- understood from reading the English translation of the Susima sutta:
"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form [the formless jhanas]?"
"No, friend."
Metta,
Starter
Many thanks for your helpful input.
"This expression is used in the commentarial explanation of the word "Paññāvimuttā" (liberated by wisdom) of this sutta [which sutta?]:
'Paññāvimuttā kho mayaṃ, āvuso'ti, āvuso, mayaṃ nijjhānakā sukkhavipassakā paññāmatteneva vimuttāti dasseti." [what does this sentence mean?]
Second, why do you think that "those "liberated by insight", with the 4 rupa jhanas but no formless jhanas (as I understand)?"
-- understood from reading the English translation of the Susima sutta:
"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form [the formless jhanas]?"
"No, friend."
Metta,
Starter
Re: Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?
I don't see how that makes them "somewhat extra-canonical". There are many things that are not in "all suttas on the subject", (such as the 12 links in the DO chain). Certainly, it's an interesting topic to figure out what is "more original", but I think that it requires quite a lot more sophistication to do properly...daverupa wrote:I'm not saying they aren't thoroughly attested, simply that they aren't always part of Sutta explanations of sammasamadhi - hence, "somewhat".mikenz66 wrote:Really. They are in numerous Suttas, such as MN111: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;daverupa wrote: It might be because the formless jhanas are somewhat extra-canonical.
Mike
As I said, the formless attainments are quite common. I get 41 hits from access to insight suttas on "infinitude of space":
http://www.google.com/search?q=infinitu ... be7d3ce775" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike
Re: Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?
Hello Starter,
Metta,
Dmytro
Susima sutta.starter wrote:"This expression is used in the commentarial explanation of the word "Paññāvimuttā" (liberated by wisdom) of this sutta [which sutta?]:
"Wisdom-liberated" is explained here as liberated by wisdom only, dry-insight meditators, without jhanas.'Paññāvimuttā kho mayaṃ, āvuso'ti, āvuso, mayaṃ nijjhānakā sukkhavipassakā paññāmatteneva vimuttāti dasseti." [what does this sentence mean?]
Indeed those "liberated by insight" have not developed the formless states. The degree to which they have developed rupa jhanas may vary.Second, why do you think that "those "liberated by insight", with the 4 rupa jhanas but no formless jhanas (as I understand)?"
-- understood from reading the English translation of the Susima sutta:
"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form [the formless jhanas]?"
"No, friend."
Metta,
Dmytro
Re: Translation of nijjhanaka sukkhvipassaka?
Dear Dymtro,
Many thanks for your translation:
'Paññāvimuttā kho mayaṃ, āvuso'ti, āvuso, mayaṃ nijjhānakā sukkhavipassakā paññāmatteneva vimuttāti dasseti." [what does this sentence mean?]
"Wisdom-liberated" is explained here as liberated by wisdom only, dry-insight meditators, without jhanas."
-- Haha, this translation is in perfect agreement with the early Chinese agama version of the susima sutta.
Many thanks for your translation:
'Paññāvimuttā kho mayaṃ, āvuso'ti, āvuso, mayaṃ nijjhānakā sukkhavipassakā paññāmatteneva vimuttāti dasseti." [what does this sentence mean?]
"Wisdom-liberated" is explained here as liberated by wisdom only, dry-insight meditators, without jhanas."
-- Haha, this translation is in perfect agreement with the early Chinese agama version of the susima sutta.