Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby cooran » Sun May 10, 2009 10:16 am

Hello all,

I'm wondering how people are going and if anybody is still doing the exercises - if anyone is, can they let us know how they are going?

metta
Chris
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby Branko » Mon May 11, 2009 9:29 am

Obviously not too many.
What is the minimum of the class members :smile:
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby Branko » Sat May 16, 2009 12:35 pm

Lesson 9.

Is there any rule according to which in the sentence
3. Dārakā pupphāni saṃharitvā mātulassa datvā hasanti
not both verbs were translated as gerund, but only the first one:
Children, having collected flowers, give (them) to the uncle and laugh.

My translation (into Serbian) was something like this:
Having collected flowers and having given (them) to the uncle, children laugh.

:anjali:
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby Dhammanando » Sat May 16, 2009 12:59 pm

Branko wrote:Is there any rule according to which in the sentence
3. Dārakā pupphāni saṃharitvā mātulassa datvā hasanti
not both verbs were translated as gerund, but only the first one:
Children, having collected flowers, give (them) to the uncle and laugh.


It's not a rule, but just a means of making the English rendering sound more natural. Sometimes in Pali narratives you get sentences with six or more absolutives, describing a succession of actions, with just one finite verb at the end. It would sound absurd in English if each of those absolutives were translated literally, and so many translators will substitute finite verbs for some or all of them.

My translation (into Serbian) was something like this:
Having collected flowers and having given (them) to the uncle, children laugh.


Except in grammatical exercises like this, I would probably translate it:

After collecting flowers and giving them to their uncle, the children laugh.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby Branko » Sat May 16, 2009 2:24 pm

Many thanks Bhante.
That is what I thought. Just a matter of style.

What is the most important to me at this stage is just to be able to discern what form is every word in the sentence and what is it's function. Questions of style come latter :smile:
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby Branko » Tue May 19, 2009 2:43 pm

Hi Chris,
no answers this week? Am I the only one doing this course at the moment?
Anyway, I'll post here my questions related to the future lessons.
So far it was pretty easy...
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby Branko » Thu May 28, 2009 11:29 am

I'm at lesson 11 and in the sentence No. 10 of the Excercise it seems there is a mistake:

10. Dhaññaṃ āka'nkhantassa purisassa dhanaṃ dātuṃ vāṇijo icchati.
corn / wishing [for] / man / alms / to give / merchant / wishes
The merchant wishes to give alms to the man who is wishing for corn/grain.

dhanaṃ is Acc. of dhana = wealth, rich (which in this case I translate as money), not dāna = alms

Or I missed something?

:anjali:
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby Branko » Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:05 pm

I would really appreciate if someone could help me with this.

I'm at Lesson 14 and don't understand in the sentence:

14. Buddhe pasīditvā upāsako devaputto hutvā saggaloke uppajjati.
with Buddha / having being pleased / lay devotee / god / having become / in heavenly realm / is born
Being pleased with the Buddha, the lay devotee, having become a god, is born in the heavenly realm.

why "Buddhe" is translated as being instrumental, since the word is locative case?
Isn't it better here to translate "pasīditvā" with "having faith (or confidence)" [in Buddha], which would be locative case.

Many thanks

:namaste:
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby Dhammanando » Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:36 pm

Hi Branko,

Branko wrote:why "Buddhe" is translated as being instrumental, since the word is locative case?
Isn't it better here to translate "pasīditvā" with "having faith (or confidence)" [in Buddha], which would be locative case.


The verb 'pasīdati' can mean either 'to be pleased' or 'to have faith'. But in the former case the subject of the verb will normally be the mind (citta, mano, hadaya etc.), not a person. Since the subject in the exercise is 'upāsaka', your proposed translation is a better one.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby Branko » Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:35 pm

Yupiiiii :clap:
I learned something!

Thank you so much, bhante
:namaste:
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby pt1 » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:29 pm

Chris wrote:Hello all,

I'm wondering how people are going and if anybody is still doing the exercises - if anyone is, can they let us know how they are going?

metta
Chris

Hi Chris, I'm also trying to keep up. Thanks for posting the answers so far, also thanks to Branko for good questions and to Venerable Dhammanando for valuable explanations. Sorry for a late response (1 month :jawdrop: ), don't have regular internet access anymore.

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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby cooran » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:54 am

Hello Ajahn, branko, pt1, all,

I am restarting - I did a few Pali subjects years ago at the University of Queenland, but, like most things - if you aren't consistent and regular with the lessons and practice, and don't use it - you lose it.

At Dhammagiri Forest Monastery, Kholo, on Sunday, we are beginning face-to-face classes in Pali using Lily de Silva's book, led by John Kelly who is well-versed in Pali and who has some of his work published on Access to Insight, and works with Bhikkhu Bodhi to edit the almost there translation of the Anguttara Nikaya.

I am looking forward to refreshing and re-invigorating my understanding of, and interest in, Pali. Hope to catch up and continue with the rest of you soon.

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby Branko » Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:30 am

Welcome back Chris :smile:

I'd also like to ask for help again in making this clear to me.
This sentence is from Lesson 16:

Mā te pāpakammāni katvā manussalokamhā cavitvā narake (in purgatory) uppajjantu.
do not / they / evil deeds / having committed / from human world / having departed / in purgatory / may…be born
May they not commit evil deeds and be born in purgatory after departing from the human world.

I'm not quite sure if this particle "mā" relates also to verb "katvā" and not only to "uppajjantu".

Is it possible to translate the sentence this way:
"After they have committed evil deeds and departed from human world, let them not be reborn in purgatory."

In fact, meaning of the both translations is the same, but since these are exercises, I just want to as precise as possible.

Many thanks for clarification.
:anjali:
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby mirco » Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:47 pm

:OT:

cooran wrote:Samaṇa [BSk. śramaṇa, fr. śram, but mixed in meaning with śam]

Sounds like shaman comes from that.

:-) Regards
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