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Karmic fruit - Dhamma Wheel

Karmic fruit

A forum for beginners and members of other Buddhist traditions to ask questions about Theravāda (The Way of the Elders). Responses require moderator approval before they are visible.
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Karmic fruit

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:23 pm

Do you think the karmic fruit can appear in the form of being in a position to accrue further bad karma?

I'm watching a program on Hitler Youth, thinking about how their young, vulnerable minds were put into a terrible position. And I'm speculating that their actions probably caused them to contribute to their cycle of suffering.

:anjali:


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kc2dpt
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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:02 pm

I think that's a tough question.

One's kamma could be a cause for being born poor, ugly, despised... and these are certainly conditions more conducive to creating more bad kamma. Then again, one born rich, attractive, and well liked can also create bad kamma. Ajahn Brahm likens it to baking a cake: the best of ingredients can still turn out a terrible cake if used carelessly while the worst of ingredients can still turn out a tasty cake when used with skill.
- Peter


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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby SeerObserver » Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:29 pm


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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:42 pm

Thank you both, these answers are satisfying input.

It almost seems more unfortunate to experience karmic fruit in such a way that you are causing further harm, like it's continuing the cycle. When something unpleasant happens in my life, I sometimes think I'm kind of cleaning up my karma. Better now than later to bear the fruit, possibly in the form of worse delusion.

Hope I make sense :anjali:


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retrofuturist
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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:20 pm

Greetings Drolma,

Cause is effect is cause is effect - one moment conditions the next.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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AdvaitaJ
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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby AdvaitaJ » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:30 pm

Drolma,

The last thing I want to do is defend Hitler youth, but even for them, wouldn't "intention" play a major role? If their intent was to save their families, their homes, their younger siblings, wouldn't that have put them in a position to generate more positive karma than many of us could ever achieve?

Regards: AdvaitaJ
The birds have vanished down the sky. Now the last cloud drains away.
We sit together, the mountain and me, until only the mountain remains.
Li Bai

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kc2dpt
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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby kc2dpt » Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:39 am

- Peter


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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby SeerObserver » Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:47 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:53 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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kc2dpt
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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby kc2dpt » Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:56 am

I still think you are conflating 'cause' and 'condition'.
- Peter


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retrofuturist
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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:58 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:22 am

Hi SeerObserver and AdvaitaJ,

Yes, that's what I mean. The Hitler Youth kids were in such an unfortunate position. The program I was watching was so sad, little kids being made to guard corpses! Sorry to be graphic, but it happened. Those kids were in a terrible predicament. It's an interesting point about intention. But the thing is that kids really don't understand about death and stuff until a certain age, and even through adolescence kids don't understand long-term consequences very well. That's why they engage in risky behavior a lot of times. So I don't know what the intent factor could be like in such a young mind, it's hard to imagine. And as you mentioned, loving your family and wanting to protect them seems like wholesome karma.

I was just thinking that being born into a position to basically be forced to create negative karma and cause harm really sucks. It's a human birth, which is good, but it seems like some negative karmic fruit coming to pass too. I was thinking about the cyclic nature of all of this.

:anjali:


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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:27 am

Hi Retro and Peter,

Both of your comments make sense. I think it's true about this flow of cause and effect, like water, and it's true about the distinction between karma and its fruit too.

:juggling:


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retrofuturist
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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:28 am

Greetings Drolma,

Re: your Hitler youth post...

Its worth remembering though that causing suffering to others in inherent in our existence.

We need food, shelter and water to survive, and even with the most careful effort and the best intentions, our actions required for our own sustinence and continuation are going to cause harm and death to sentient beings.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby appicchato » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:35 am


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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby SeerObserver » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:44 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:50 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby SeerObserver » Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:52 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:20 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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clw_uk
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Re: Karmic fruit

Postby clw_uk » Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:12 pm

Greetings


I think some of these posts tie into the other thread about child prostiutes, in short one does not know what is and isnt result of kamma so anything that comes up is a speculative guess


You dont know that they were in said position because of past kamma


Metta
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken


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