Rebirth vs Reincarnation...

[mikenz66]

Hi Bhante,

In your experience, is this concept of a primordial citta common in the Ajahn Mun and Chah forest traditions? Can you say say who is well-known from those traditions who espouse it and those who don't?

Thanks.

Ajahn Maha Boowa talks quite openly about "The citta that never dies":
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=1205
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=19233
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=15010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some feel that Thanissaro Bhikkhu's discussion of "consciousness without feature" and anatta leans in a similar direction:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16082
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=609
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11079


Mike

[robertk]

Thanks to ven. Dhammanado and mike for all these clear explanations.

[Dhammanando]

In your experience, is this concept of a primordial citta common in the Ajahn Mun and Chah forest traditions?

I think "common" would be a bit of an understatement. The primordial citta conception and similar strains of thinly disguised soul theory and semi-eternalism are ubiquitous in these traditions.

Can you say say who is well-known from those traditions who espouse it and those who don't?

Among the Thai ajahns I don’t know of any who don’t teach this.

As for the non-Thai (i.e. mostly western) ajahns, with these you can predict it with a fairly high degree of accuracy from the monk’s biography. The non-eternalists for the most part comprise those who had some background in relatively orthodox strains of Theravada Buddhism before they got mixed up with the forest tradition. Examples would include Ajahns Khemadhammo, Tiradhammo and Sujāto, who all began as Mahasi practitioners; Ajahn Viradhammo, who began as a Ñāṇavīra enthusiast after Sāmaṇera Bodhesako introduced him to the man’s teachings; and Ajahn Brahmavamso, who began with the Samatha Trust, a British group that combines samatha meditation with Abhidhamma study. All of these appear to have avoided the semi-eternalist error that’s endemic to the Thai forest tradition. But those monks who had no previous background in Buddhism before they stumbled across the Thai forest tradition have for the most part not avoided it.

[Mkoll]

Thanks, Bhante!

[Ceisiwr]

It would seem that materialism precedes consciousness:

Here is a link to Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation of the Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha. I recommend you read chapter 1 for an understanding of how consciousnesses are classified in the Abhidhamma, chapters 3 and 4 for an introduction to the basics of abhidhammic momentarism in the cognitive process, chapter 8 for an account of conditional relations, and then, hopefully, you'll be ready for chapter 5: an application of the foregoing to the rebirth process.

Now you may not approve or agree with what you read in this text, but armed with your new-found knowledge you will at least know better than to pose questions premised upon Marxian claptrap or ill-conceived attempts to harmonize Buddhist khaṇikavāda with modern embryology and epiphenomenalist assumptions about consciousness.

I've read your suggestions. They are interesting references yet I don't see how they explain counciousness in relation to embryonic development?


Also I think it's a bit too easy to dismiss Marxism as "clap trap". Even if you believe in rebirth, this quote holds some truth:

"It is not the consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness" Marx

[Ceisiwr]

As far as I know, neither the suttas, abdhidhamma, or commentaries explain how the causality works, so if you are looking for such an explanation, you will probably continue to be disappointed...

However, the abdhidhamma/commentary explanation of the Buddha-Dhamma is that every moment influence every subsequent moment, so there is no intrinsic difference in causality between influences within or across lives.


Mike

But surely that still leaves open the question of how one mans death can influence, in whatever manner, the joining of sperm and egg as well as the subsequent fetal development?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

As far as I know, neither the suttas, abdhidhamma, or commentaries explain how the causality works, so if you are looking for such an explanation, you will probably continue to be disappointed...

Perhaps, but I find the causality detailed here quite satisfactory...

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Radha went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles: as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.

"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for feeling.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish perception, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for perception.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish fabrications, and make them unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for fabrications.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish consciousness and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness — for the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding."

But if "a being" is considered to be more than what the Buddha teacher here due to the prevalence of views, then perhaps this sutta's explanation would not be satisfactory to one.

In short, tying it back to the topic at hand, it's quite hard to definitively compare "rebirth" and "reincarnation" when there is no definitive and agreed definition of these terms in a Buddhist context.

Metta,
Retro.

[Aloka]

Among the Thai ajahns I don’t know of any who don’t teach this.

Could you give an example of Ajahn Sumedho teaching it, please Bhante ?

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

Ajahn Sumedho is American, not Thai.

[Aloka]

Ajahn Sumedho is American, not Thai.

Yes, silly me! An example of this in relation to Ajahn Sumedho then:

As for the non-Thai (i.e. mostly western) ajahns, with these you can predict it with a fairly high degree of accuracy from the monk’s biography

[Dhammanando]

Ajahn Sumedho is American, not Thai.

Yes, silly me! An example of this in relation to Ajahn Sumedho then:

As for the non-Thai (i.e. mostly western) ajahns, with these you can predict it with a fairly high degree of accuracy from the monk’s biography

Beyond the two clarifications I've already provided (to Spiny and Mkoll) I would prefer not to take the thread's digression into heresiology any farther.

[Spiny Norman]

Beyond the two clarifications I've already provided (to Spiny and Mkoll) I would prefer not to take the thread's digression into heresiology any farther.

[Aloka]

Beyond the two clarifications I've already provided (to Spiny and Mkoll) I would prefer not to take the thread's digression into heresiology any farther.

Ok, thanks Bhante. Though I don't think the opinions of people in internet groups would make much difference to the many loyal students of the forest tradition ajahns anyway.

[Spiny Norman]

Ok, thanks Bhate. Though I don't think the opinions of people in internet groups would make much difference to the many loyal students of the forest tradition ajahns anyway.

Yes, that is apparent.

[retrofuturist]