Hello everyone,
I was wondering especially child monks, can they achieve enlightenment without experiencing worldly pleasures before hand. I mean how can they convince themselves they are meaningless and not true happiness without experience to fall back on?
As a layman this applies for me as well. For example, while I understand marrying having children etc are not especially helping in your path to peace, I still want to do them in future because I'm scared I would regret it later on in life, not having the experience. What I noticed from Buddha's life story is, he experienced all worldly pleasure before attaining enlightenment.
Please shed your light on this. Thank you
Can you attain enlightenment without experiencing all world desires?
Re: Can you attain enlightenment without experiencing all world desires?
Hello Samtheman,
From the point of view of rebirths, we all experienced every pleasant/unpleasant worldly situation. No need to re-experience it for gadzillionth time.
Ex: sn15.12
In any case, all worldly experience is anicca-dukkha-anatta. It will never permanently make you happy, so why get burned again?
Even today we experience basically everything samsara has to offer: pleasant, unpleasant or neutral feelings coming from any of the 6 sense doors. It is just a different wrapping, but the mode of experience is the same. Just like past didn't make you forever happy, same with the future. It is great delusion to think that some worldly experience will make all trouble go away.
Even the Buddha felt physical pain, problem within his sangha and problems with bad people some of who even tried to kill Him.
From the point of view of rebirths, we all experienced every pleasant/unpleasant worldly situation. No need to re-experience it for gadzillionth time.
Ex: sn15.12
In any case, all worldly experience is anicca-dukkha-anatta. It will never permanently make you happy, so why get burned again?
Even today we experience basically everything samsara has to offer: pleasant, unpleasant or neutral feelings coming from any of the 6 sense doors. It is just a different wrapping, but the mode of experience is the same. Just like past didn't make you forever happy, same with the future. It is great delusion to think that some worldly experience will make all trouble go away.
Even the Buddha felt physical pain, problem within his sangha and problems with bad people some of who even tried to kill Him.
Re: Can you attain enlightenment without experiencing all world desires?
The same applies to those with sexual experience, surely? People can (and often do) delude themselves that previous relationships were meaningless, and that the one they currently want is the only means of sexual fulfillment. But they can go on to realise that this is delusion, and become free from it. Dispassion for one sensual experience is valuable, but not as valuable as dispassion for all sensual experiences of the same kind; which in turn is not as valuable as dispassion for all possible sensuality.samtheman wrote: I was wondering especially child monks, can they achieve enlightenment without experiencing worldly pleasures before hand. I mean how can they convince themselves they are meaningless and not true happiness without experience to fall back on?
That man would presumably know that other passions can also be overcome.Now suppose the thought were to occur to him, 'I am in love with this woman, my mind ensnared with fierce desire, fierce passion. When I see her standing with another man, chatting, joking, & laughing, then sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair arise within me. Why don't I abandon my desire & passion for that woman?' So he abandons his desire & passion for that woman, and afterwards sees her standing with another man, chatting, joking, & laughing. What do you think, monks: As he sees her standing with another man, chatting, joking, & laughing, would sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair arise in him?"
"No, lord. Why is that? He is dispassionate toward that woman..."
Re: Can you attain enlightenment without experiencing all world desires?
The Buddha was driven to seek enlightenment by seeing an old man, an ill man, and a corpse. He experienced none of these things himself, but he could use his own eyes and his imagination to see that these problems needed a radical solution. Those who have never been married simply need to look at examples of that relationship and can then see how unsatisfactory it is. Why do you think you might regret not getting married in later life? The Buddha left his marriage and didn't go back to it, he had no regrets. I've never heard of a Buddhist monk who regretted not getting married, or any single philosopher of any standing who regretted remaining single (and many did choose to be single!) I'm glad I didn't get married or have kids, it leads to a lot of freedom!
- Mal
Re: Can you attain enlightenment without experiencing all world desires?
Desire is described as an obstacle to enlightenment.
So I don't see how experiencing more desire would help attain it.
Probably it's helpful to realize that fulfilling your desires doesn't bring happiness. But it's not essential to experience "all world desires" to reach this conclusion.
That being said, it may be helpful for you to marry and have kids and see how much pain and suffering that brings.
So I don't see how experiencing more desire would help attain it.
Probably it's helpful to realize that fulfilling your desires doesn't bring happiness. But it's not essential to experience "all world desires" to reach this conclusion.
That being said, it may be helpful for you to marry and have kids and see how much pain and suffering that brings.
Re: Can you attain enlightenment without experiencing all world desires?
But on the other hand, child monks wouldn't have to work so hard to abandon all the accrued habit energies due to exposure to worldly pleasures like older adults do. Ven. Rahula, the Buddha's son, became a monk at a very young age and he also attained enlightenment like his dad..samtheman wrote:I was wondering especially child monks, can they achieve enlightenment without experiencing worldly pleasures before hand. I mean how can they convince themselves they are meaningless and not true happiness without experience to fall back on?
Re: Can you attain enlightenment without experiencing all world desires?
To some degree, yes. However, desire, the chanda kind, is a necessary aspect of the path.Pinetree wrote:Desire is described as an obstacle to enlightenment.
sabbe dhammā nālaṃ abhinivesāya
"nothing whatsoever should be clung to"
"nothing whatsoever should be clung to"
Re: Can you attain enlightenment without experiencing all world desires?
Santa I agree with your point, but we do not have the same situation today.
I am not sure whether we have Arahants today to assure the children to be guided in the right path.
Some times the children become victims.
Poor children are adopted by the monks. For this I do not have a problem because it is a human issue.
Some children are ordained to protect the temple's wealth to a particular family.
This is a very complex issue and to be evaluated in own merits.
I am not sure whether we have Arahants today to assure the children to be guided in the right path.
Some times the children become victims.
Poor children are adopted by the monks. For this I do not have a problem because it is a human issue.
Some children are ordained to protect the temple's wealth to a particular family.
This is a very complex issue and to be evaluated in own merits.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Can you attain enlightenment without experiencing all world desires?
Lots of good points raised. So majority people are saying you don't need to experience worldly desires to know that they are fruitless.
Also I agree with Sarath that child monks in todays day and age is a complex issue and has to be evaluated in own merits.
I asked this question, because I always had this notion you only learn things for sure by experience.
But then again I have never had alcohol or smoked and I plan not to because it is too obvious that it is a complete useless activity. So I didn't have to experience it to know that.
Thanks for all the replies
Good point AlexFrom the point of view of rebirths, we all experienced every pleasant/unpleasant worldly situation. No need to re-experience it for gadzillionth time.
Also I agree with Sarath that child monks in todays day and age is a complex issue and has to be evaluated in own merits.
I asked this question, because I always had this notion you only learn things for sure by experience.
But then again I have never had alcohol or smoked and I plan not to because it is too obvious that it is a complete useless activity. So I didn't have to experience it to know that.
Thanks for all the replies
Re: Can you attain enlightenment without experiencing all world desires?
Everyone is different. so dont assume that children cant attain nirvana.
you must be pretty young, as you get older you will realise that you DONT have to experience everything.
i have never got drunk or indulge in drugs. i dont think i want to.
i have never had children or had sex with different women.
when i was younger, i used to think like you. there are so many things i havent exzperienced yet.
i must at least try it once.
if its is important to you, try it.
but its never too early to get involved in meditations and spiritual pursuits.
good luck in your adventures, just rtemember to stay safe and dont overdo it.
you must be pretty young, as you get older you will realise that you DONT have to experience everything.
i have never got drunk or indulge in drugs. i dont think i want to.
i have never had children or had sex with different women.
when i was younger, i used to think like you. there are so many things i havent exzperienced yet.
i must at least try it once.
if its is important to you, try it.
but its never too early to get involved in meditations and spiritual pursuits.
good luck in your adventures, just rtemember to stay safe and dont overdo it.
Re: Can you attain enlightenment without experiencing all world desires?
MrLearner wrote:Hello everyone,
I was wondering especially child monks, can they achieve enlightenment without experiencing worldly pleasures before hand. I mean how can they convince themselves they are meaningless and not true happiness without experience to fall back on?
As a layman this applies for me as well. For example, while I understand marrying having children etc are not especially helping in your path to peace, I still want to do them in future because I'm scared I would regret it later on in life, not having the experience. What I noticed from Buddha's life story is, he experienced all worldly pleasure before attaining enlightenment.
Please shed your light on this. Thank you
"You have to be somebody before you can be nobody" - Jack Engler
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "
--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "
--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
Re: Can you attain enlightenment without experiencing all world desires?
Kusala wrote: "You have to be somebody before you can be nobody" - Jack Engler
Is that a Theravāda (or sutta) teaching? Considering that Dhamma runs contrary to the world (which values craving and accumulations), and that sex should be avoided as it is useless (AN4.159). Unlike food, craving and conceit, sex doesn't seem to have any preliminary use.
"This body, sister, comes into being through food. And yet it is by relying on food that food is to be abandoned.
"This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.
"This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.
"This body comes into being through sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse is to be abandoned. With regard to sexual intercourse, the Buddha declares the cutting off of the bridge.
AN4.159
The more worldly attachments one has, the more one has to let go, isn't it?
Interesting post by someone.
Re: Can you attain enlightenment without experiencing all world desires?
Should one abandon food? Can one abandon food? Is Ananada suggesting that because the nun is now (supposedly) severely ill she can now practice abandonment of food, and die without suffering? Is it because of relying on food, to generate the energy to study Dhamma, she can now abandon food and attain the cessation of *all* craving?
- Mal
Re: Can you attain enlightenment without experiencing all world desires?
You eat enough to sustain your body (not to starve and die) until you reach parinibbana after which, food is no longer needed.mal4mac wrote:Should one abandon food? Can one abandon food? Is Ananada suggesting that because the nun is now (supposedly) severely ill she can now practice abandonment of food, and die without suffering? Is it because of relying on food, to generate the energy to study Dhamma, she can now abandon food and attain the cessation of *all* craving?
So food has a use for the path.
You can start your path by craving to be like this or that Arhat (or to stop dukkha), but at some point when you are on the path that craving is no longer needed, and so you drop it.
You can start your path by having conceit (why this or that person is an arhat and not me?!), but at some point when you are on the path that conceit is no longer needed, and so you drop it.
Apparently sex has no help, "relying upon sex to abandon sex" along the path.