Confusion about eternally of "soul"

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Re: Confusion about eternally of "soul"

Postby Zom » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:46 pm

And also, something I've been wondering about, is Buddhist practice in the present at all affected by whichever side of this argument is correct, if either? I'm not trying to encourage that the issue be ignored, things like this should be investigated, but since as far as I can tell the training remains the same, it isn't quite such a big deal.


Actually there are practical moments as I see it.

First... it concerns Right Views. One can think that Buddha didn't say that there is NO self, because he only listed not-self phenomena, and okey, let them be not-me, but there is still some very sublime type of ME and this is good. So this view about nibbanic consciousness can create this "sublime" self-view.

Second... even if we let go of all possible self-views (even transcendent ones), we may still keep clinging to consciousness as to something that "should not be annihilated". Of course, in our practise we'll have to let go of consciousness completely only on the higher stages - possibly - only when jhanas are well developed. And so one can say this is a too far point of practice. But this is a point where we can "stuck" still clining to consciousness, unable to let go because of that very idea, that consciousness should "be" in nibbana (or - that nibbana IS consciousness).

By the way, there is also a very interesting thing as nirodha-samapatti. It is said (probably only in commentaries) that there is no consciousness at all. In the suttas we often see this way of fermentation destruction - that is reaching nirodha-samapatti. As far as I understand, in this method one destroys delusion by seeing that actually "there is nothing left, and even consciousness has gone". Seeing it this way his ignorance is destroyed either completely or to the level of anagami. One sees: "Ow yes.. there is really no me, even "very hidden or very sublime".
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Re: Confusion about eternally of "soul"

Postby pegembara » Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:27 am

Consciousness without feature, [1]
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"


Biography of Mae Chee Kaew Chapter Phayom in Full Bloom P.195
http://go2.wordpress.com/?id=725X1342&s ... aratano%2F

“When you investigate mental phenomena until you go be-
yond them completely, the remaining defling elements of
consciousness will be drawn into a radiant nucleus of aware-
ness, which merges with the mind’s naturally radiant essence.
This radiance is so majestic and mesmerizing that even tran-
scendent faculties like spontaneous mindfulness and intuitive
wisdom invariably fall under its spell. The mind’s brightness
and clarity appear to be so extraordinary and awe-inspiring,
that nothing can possibly compare. The luminous essence
is the epitome of perfect goodness and virtue, the ultimate
in spiritual happiness. It is your true, original self — the
core of your being. But this true self is also the fundamental
source of all attachment to being and becoming. Ultimately
it is attachment to the allure of this primordial radiance of
mind that causes living beings to wander indefnitely through
the world of becoming and ceasing, constantly grasping at
birth and enduring death.


“But that radiant emptiness should not be mistaken fo
the pure emptiness of Nibbāna. The two are as diferent a
night and day. The radiant mind is the original mind of th
cycle of constant becoming; but it is not the essence of min
which is fully pure and free from birth and death. Radianc
is a very subtle, natural condition whose uniform brightnes
and clarity make it appear empty. This is your original na
ture beyond name and form. But it is not yet Nibbāna.


Seems that nibbana is the final cessation of [the activity of] consciousness.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Confusion about eternally of "soul"

Postby Sobeh » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:37 am

pegembara wrote:Nibbana is the final cessation of consciousness.


Fixed.
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Re: Confusion about eternally of "soul"

Postby Zom » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:03 pm

More:

Itivuttaka 79:

This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "This body falls apart; consciousness is subject to fading; all acquisitions are inconstant, stressful, subject to change."

Knowing the body
as falling apart,
& consciousness
as dissolving away,
seeing the danger
in acquisitions,
you've gone beyond
birth & death.
Having reached the foremost peace,
you bide your time,
composed.
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Re: Confusion about eternally of "soul"

Postby Zom » Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:55 pm

More:

"Insofar as it disintegrates, monk, it is called the 'world.' Now what disintegrates?

1. The eye disintegrates. Forms disintegrate. Consciousness at the eye disintegrates.....
2. The ear disintegrates........
3. The nose...
4. The tongue...
5. The body ...
6. "The intellect disintegrates. Ideas disintegrate. Consciousness at the intellect-consciousness disintegrates. Contact at the intellect disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too disintegrates.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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