Kamma_2 Questions

[Nosta]

1- Kamma law is a hard one to get. There are some situations in real life that makes me a lot of confusion, so let me see if i can explain it, so you can understand my doubts and help me.

For example, lets imagine that once i killed someone.Thats the cause (kamma) for a future "ugly" result (vipaka) to me.

So, some years later or maybe in the next life, whatever, the result/fruits (vipaka) of my bad action is this: a thug stoles me all the money and gives me a shot with his gun on my leg...Now, the fruit (vipaka) of my bad action "expired" and i "paid" for the action i did in the past (i killed someone). Now lets see my confusion: isnt strange that the result (vipaka) of my bad action is the cause (kamma) of a bad action of other person? Remember, the other guy (the thug) shot me on the leg and stole my money, and thats bad for him, it will cause him a bad result in the future(for example, he may get his house burned in a storm).
Is this the way that kamma works, with the vipaka of some people being the kamma of others??

Kill someone (kamma) ---> Get shot (vipaka)
Give a shot (kamma)----> Get house burn (vipaka)


This is just an example of course, one could create lots of other examples.

2- Another question: some people see kamma as a "moral" law, and thats bad because means that there is some kind of entity or inteligence behind the tissue reality. So, i started to think what kamma may be, and i concluded something that i would like you to see if is what Buddha said or not. In my opinion, there is not exactly a kamma law. What happens is that when you commit a bad action, thats the cause of a "whirlpool" of confusion on your mind (or 5 skandas, or conscience, whatever). Like if you have created a cloud on you. In the future, be it in this life or next one, you will, under the right circunstances, be under that "cloud", under that mental state of confusion you created. I dont know how to explain it well (specially because i dont speak english) but my basic idea is that kamma is not exactly a moral law. The reason why you get good or bad fruits has to be with the increase or decrease of your mental state/lucidity. What do you have to say about this?

[Adrien]

I have some questions too :

3) If two people make exactly the same gesture, like stabbing someone, with the same intention : will their kamma be different if in one case the victim dies and in the other not ?
(Or : is only cetana important ?)

4) If one person intend to kill someone, but at the end can't do it (because of some physical reason) : has he created bad kamma ?
(Or : is cetana sufficient for creating bad kamma ?)

5) If we do something with only good intentions, like bringing water in some african village, and then it appears that it has done more harm than good : will that create a bad kamma, a good one, or both ?

[Mawkish1983]

See http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html

Also, look up the four imponderables (haven't got a link to hand, sorry)

[Sekha]

first a warning:

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Developping speculative views in general is harmful. We will get the answer to all these questions when we will be endowed with the divine eye, after having mastered the 4th jhana. Till then, we should only try not to produce any bad kamma.

I don't know if it helps but:

"There is the case where a trifling evil deed done by a certain individual takes him to hell. There is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by another individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Kamma is the field, consciousness the seed and craving the moisture for the consciousness of beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving to become esatablished [in a particular realm].

[acinteyyo]

Also, look up the four imponderables (haven't got a link to hand, sorry)

acinteyya

best wishes, acinteyyo

[Zom]

Now lets see my confusion: isnt strange that the result (vipaka) of my bad action is the cause (kamma) of a bad action of other person?

Why strange if everything in this world is interconnected?

And yes, if Lord Buddha said that this question should be put aside - it is better to follow his advice

[Nosta]

Buddha said something more important, by other words. He said that we should analyze his teachings. I am a little disapointed. If i ask about siddhis, if i ask about kamma, etc, the answer is always "That are not important questions". They are important! One should get a general idea and some proofs (or at least good arguments) on how thing works. We should seek if some teaching is important or not!

If you ask chatolics about angels, they will say "not important questions". If you ask muslins about xyzetc they will answer the same, and so on.

[cooran]

Hello all,

I've always found that Bhikkhu Bodhi's teachings are concise, simple and accurate:

Kamma -Bhikkhu Bodhi

There is a tremendous variety among the living beings existing in the world. People and animals are of different sorts. What is it that causes us to take rebirth in a particular form? Does it happen through coincidence, through accident, by chance without any reason or is there some principle behind it? What is it that determines the form of rebirth we take?
Buddha answers these questions, with the Pali term "kamma". Kamma is the factor which determines the specific form of rebirth, what kind of a person we are, at the outset of our life, and it is kamma again that determines a good number of the experiences that we undergo in the course of our life.

The word "kamma" means literally action, deed or doing. But in Buddhism it means specifically volitional action.

The Buddha says:
"Monks it is volition that I call kamma. For having willed, one then acts by body, speech or mind". What really lies behind all action, the essence of all action, is volition, the power of the will. It is this volition expressing itself as action of body, speech and mind that the Buddha calls kamma.

This means that unintentional action is not kamma. If we accidently step on some ants while walking down the street, that is not the kamma of taking life, for there was no intention to kill. If we speak some statement believing it to be true and it turns out to be false, this is not the kamma of lying, for there is no intention of deceiving.

Kamma manifests itself in three ways, through three "doors" of action. These are body, speech and mind. When we act physically the body serves as the instrument for volition. This is bodily kamma. When we speak, expressing our thoughts and intentions, that is verbal kamma, which can be performed either directly through speech or else indirectly through writing or other means of communications. When we think, plan, desire inwardly, without any outer action, that is mental kamma. What lies behind all these forms of actions is the mind and the chief mental factor which causes the action is the volition.

GO TO http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/kamma.htm for the following links:
Every choice of our's has a tremendous potential for the future
Kamma is like a seed
Type of Kamma Based on the Time of Fruition
Types of Kamma based on Ethical Grounds - Wholesome and Unwholesome Kamma
Why is one intelligent and another dull minded? How is one born ugly and another beautiful?
Survey of Buddhist Cosmology
Mind is the architect of the whole universe
We are not hopeless prisoners of our past
Going beyond kamma - the ultimate aim of the Path

with metta,
Chris

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Nosta,

Is this the way that kamma works, with the vipaka of some people being the kamma of others??

Kill someone (kamma) ---> Get shot (vipaka)
Give a shot (kamma)----> Get house burn (vipaka)

That's the kind of over-simplified version of kamma we find in the post-canonical Jataka Tales and pop culture.... and not at all how it is depicted in the suttas.

I would recommend scrapping all you have learnt about kamma from other spiritual paths and pop culture generally, and start again from scratch. Have a look at the study guide given above, have a look at the Bhikkhu Bodhi article that Cooran linked to above... look for other teachings from Theravada bhikkhus on the Internet. Consider it all with intelligence, and work out what you think it means... but don't get entrenched in your view, because as your Dhamma knowledge increases, your understanding of kamma (or any other key concept) may become increasingly refined. Even the most basic and over-simplified (and indeed erroneous) view on kamma has some value, as a morality teaching, but you'll get more value out of it if you try to understand it in the wider context of the Dhamma.

If you don't clear the rotten wood of misconceptions first, your foundations will not be firm and you'll always have a superstitious and unverifiable version of kamma on your hands, and it will not be to your benefit. I have no doubt that people here will be keen to help you find additional resources should you require some assistance on that front.

What happens is that when you commit a bad action, thats the cause of a "whirlpool" of confusion on your mind (or 5 skandas, or conscience, whatever). Like if you have created a cloud on you. In the future, be it in this life or next one, you will, under the right circunstances, be under that "cloud", under that mental state of confusion you created. I dont know how to explain it well (specially because i dont speak english) but my basic idea is that kamma is not exactly a moral law. The reason why you get good or bad fruits has to be with the increase or decrease of your mental state/lucidity. What do you have to say about this?

You're getting closer... but keep investigating!

Buddha said something more important, by other words. He said that we should analyze his teachings. I am a little disapointed. If i ask about siddhis, if i ask about kamma, etc, the answer is always "That are not important questions". They are important! One should get a general idea and some proofs (or at least good arguments) on how thing works. We should seek if some teaching is important or not!

Yes, kamma is important... it's also important to come to know the scope of what we can know about it, and what we can't know, based on our human limitations.

Metta,
Retro.

[jcsuperstar]

i found ajahn Thanissaro's description of these things to be very helpful try this book, it'll maybe answer some questions for you, and help you to come up with some new ones too maybe!

Wings to Awakening →
An Anthology from the Pali Canon
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/index.html

[plwk]

Buddha said something more important, by other words. He said that we should analyze his teachings. I am a little disapointed. If i ask about siddhis, if i ask about kamma, etc, the answer is always "That are not important questions". They are important! One should get a general idea and some proofs (or at least good arguments) on how thing works. We should seek if some teaching is important or not!

If you ask chatolics about angels, they will say "not important questions". If you ask muslins about xyzetc they will answer the same, and so on.

Another way of looking at the current 'exasperation' that you are experiencing...

Simsapa Sutta
Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the simsapa forest.
Then, picking up a few simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the monks,
"What do you think, monks: Which are more numerous, the few simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the simsapa forest?
"The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. Those overhead in the simsapa forest are more numerous."

"In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught].
And why haven't I taught them?
Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.
That is why I have not taught them.

"And what have I taught?
'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress':
This is what I have taught.
And why have I taught these things?
Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.
This is why I have taught them.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation,
'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.'
Your duty is the contemplation,
'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"

[plwk]

Nibbedhika Sutta
"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said?

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.

"And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma.

"And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now, that which arises later [in this lifetime], and that which arises following that. This is called the result of kamma.

"And what is the cessation of kamma? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

"Now when a disciple of the noble ones discerns kamma in this way, the cause by which kamma comes into play in this way, the diversity of kamma in this way, the result of kamma in this way, the cessation of kamma in this way, & the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma in this way, then he discerns this penetrative holy life as the cessation of kamma.

"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play... The diversity in kamma... The result of kamma... The cessation of kamma... The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said, and in reference to this was it said.

Cula-kammavibhanga Sutta: The Shorter Exposition of Kamma
Maha-kammavibhanga Sutta: The Great Exposition of Kamma

[Wind]

1-
Is this the way that kamma works, with the vipaka of some people being the kamma of others??

Sometimes yes, but not always. Like you can die from falling down while rock climbing as a result of your bad kamma, so it doesn't necessarily have to involve others. But more importantly no one can know for sure how or when kamma bears its fruit except for the Buddha. So for anyone to attempt to dissect the inter-workings of kamma would ultimately lead no where. But it's good to have a basic understanding: That is bad kamma bears bad fruits, good kamma bears good fruits.

[Wind]

I have some questions too :

3) If two people make exactly the same gesture, like stabbing someone, with the same intention : will their kamma be different if in one case the victim dies and in the other not ?
(Or : is only cetana important ?)

4) If one person intend to kill someone, but at the end can't do it (because of some physical reason) : has he created bad kamma ?
(Or : is cetana sufficient for creating bad kamma ?)

5) If we do something with only good intentions, like bringing water in some african village, and then it appears that it has done more harm than good : will that create a bad kamma, a good one, or both ?

Regarding questions:
3) I think there will only be a slight differences such as the difference between murder and attempted murder both of which comes with severe punishment.

4) Yes he would have created bad kamma. Kamma is volitional action in 3 forms: by body, speech, or mind. So one can commit kamma in either of those ways. So evil intention thoughts will created bad kamma.

5) It will not create bad kamma because kamma is volition. Your intent was not to harm so it won't result in bad kamma.

[acinteyyo]

Hi Nosta,

Buddha said something more important, by other words. He said that we should analyze his teachings. I am a little disapointed. If i ask about siddhis, if i ask about kamma, etc, the answer is always "That are not important questions". They are important! One should get a general idea and some proofs (or at least good arguments) on how thing works. We should seek if some teaching is important or not!
If you ask chatolics about angels, they will say "not important questions". If you ask muslins about xyzetc they will answer the same, and so on.

No need to be disappointed. You're right, one should get a general idea but if you ask questions you have to be sure that you're asking valid questions. The two questions you asked are:

For example, lets imagine that once i killed someone.Thats the cause (kamma) for a future "ugly" result (vipaka) to me. So, some years later or maybe in the next life, whatever, the result/fruits (vipaka) of my bad action is this: a thug stoles me all the money and gives me a shot with his gun on my leg...Now, the fruit (vipaka) of my bad action "expired" and i "paid" for the action i did in the past (i killed someone). Now lets see my confusion: isnt strange that the result (vipaka) of my bad action is the cause (kamma) of a bad action of other person? Remember, the other guy (the thug) shot me on the leg and stole my money, and thats bad for him, it will cause him a bad result in the future(for example, he may get his house burned in a storm).
Is this the way that kamma works, with the vipaka of some people being the kamma of others??
Kill someone (kamma) ---> Get shot (vipaka)
Give a shot (kamma)----> Get house burn (vipaka)
This is just an example of course, one could create lots of other examples.

and

Another question: some people see kamma as a "moral" law, and thats bad because means that there is some kind of entity or inteligence behind the tissue reality. So, i started to think what kamma may be, and i concluded something that i would like you to see if is what Buddha said or not. In my opinion, there is not exactly a kamma law. What happens is that when you commit a bad action, thats the cause of a "whirlpool" of confusion on your mind (or 5 skandas, or conscience, whatever). Like if you have created a cloud on you. In the future, be it in this life or next one, you will, under the right circunstances, be under that "cloud", under that mental state of confusion you created. I dont know how to explain it well (specially because i dont speak english) but my basic idea is that kamma is not exactly a moral law. The reason why you get good or bad fruits has to be with the increase or decrease of your mental state/lucidity. What do you have to say about this?

You're right that kamma is important but the questions you raised aren't important. They belong to the group of questions which transcends the limits of thinking and over which therefore one should not ponder. The Buddha said:

There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

The Buddha-range of the Buddhas is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...

The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them.

(emphasize added)
A lot of problems arise from asking the wrong questions. IMHO a good question would have been: "What is kamma?", for example. And the answer should be:

Intention, I tell you, is action (kamma). Intending, one does action (kamma) by way of body, speech, & mind.

If you don't like the answers to your questions that is your problem. Don't get me wrong, this isn't meant to be offensive.
Just ask valid questions and I'm sure everyone here is willing to answer and help you in one way or another.

best wishes, acinteyyo

[Adrien]

"Monks it is volition that I call kamma. For having willed, one then acts by body, speech or mind

Isn't "having willed" already an act by mind ? In this case, how should be considered this : "for having willed, one then acts by mind" ? What is exactly "acting by mind" ?

[acinteyyo]

Isn't "having willed" already an act by mind?

I would say: No. It is not the mind which "has willed", the mind is "the place" where intention arises. It is not an act by mind to have an intention. In AN VI.63 it says:

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech and mind."
"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play."

Since contact (phasso) is the cause by which kamma comes into play, then contact is also the cause by which intention (cetanā) comes into play. So it's not an act by mind to have an intention, but rather the existence of contact is the cause for intention to arise in the mind.

In this case, how should be considered this : "for having willed, one then acts by mind" ? What is exactly "acting by mind"?

There are lots of actions by mind (manokamma) for example thinking of someone else with hatred, indulging in thoughts of jealousy or envy as examples for unskillful mental action (akusala manokamma) or thoughts of good will to others, spreading loving kindness to all beings and thoughts of forgiveness as examples for skillful mental action (kusala manokamma).

best wishes, acinteyyo

[Khemadhammo Bhikkhu]

Many useful things have been said here. Might I just add that the law of kamma is not the same as justice. This is some misunderstanding which I often come across when talking to people. We should not forget that the Blessed One was a discoverer of the law of kamma, not a creator. He did not teach that people deserve to be subject to the ripening of their deeds. ("Deserve" would presume that the law of kamma is some sort of justice of providence.) He simply taught that the law of kamma exists, and in fact, even taught the way to liberate oneself from it.

I would like to emphasize this, because many people misunderstand this. Some people say that Buddhists believe that Africans are poor because they deserve so (because they have given little in their past lives, etc.). This is not correct, in my opinion. The Blessed One never said it is right for people to receive certain results of their kamma. He simply taught about certain laws that exist, and we therefore have to deal with these laws.

Metta,

Khemadhammo Bhikkhu.

[BubbaBuddhist]

If you consider that vipaka bears fruition when conditions are favorable, those sets of conditions may be well-nigh infinite. So the particular manifestation will depend on the conditions causing the fruition. Buddha's examples, I always thought, were "for examples," not "This is always what happens;" that is to say, he wasn't laying out a linear diagram of kamma and vipaka but describing some of the possible outcomes to give an understanding of the basic mechanism. ANyway, this is how I took it.

Even though the manifesting condions can be infinite, the underlying vipaka is the same. I think this is why kamma-vipaka is imponderable: who could possibly comprehend all the endless possible permutations of causes and conditions even a single intentional act is both parent and heir to? Except, of course, a Tathaghata?

J

[mikenz66]

Dear Venerable,

Might I just add that the law of kamma is not the same as justice.

I agree, I think that the word "law" can have unfortunate overtones in English. In Dhamma terms it is being used in the sense of well-established scientific principles (as in "Newton's Laws", or the "Laws of Thermodynamics"), but "Law" does have the ring of something man made and sometimes leads to complaints that "kamma seems unfair", as if there was someone making up these "laws".


Mike