OMG it's a rebirth thread

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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby cooran » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:32 am

Hello all,

"Even in the Theravada collection of Suttas, there is a small but substantial body of evidence to support the idea of such a between-lives state, with the gandhabba as a kind of mutable, restless 'spirit' seeking out a new rebirth to 'fall' into" (Harvey, 1995: 98-108).

(pages 105 to 108 in this preview of The Selfless Mind by Brian Peter Harvey).
The Ghandabba Spirit-Being of the Intermediary Existence
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=rcN ... #PPA104,M1

metta
Chris
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:51 am

Chris that was a wonderful read, thank you!

:namaste:
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby Element » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:07 am

clw_uk wrote:One problem i find though with explanations of continuation is the "rebirth" linking consciousness. Isnt consciounsness dependent on Name and Form so i find it hard to see how a rebirth linking consciouness could exsist because it would need name and form which would mean that name and form get taken into another existence after physical death?

Anyone who could clear this up for me i would be very grateful :namaste:

Hi Craig

In the suttas, there are only six types of consciousness. Further, the word consciousness comes from the Pali 'vinnana', which means 'direct knowing'. Thus consciousness implies 'cognition' or 'knowing', namely via the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body & mind. Also, as you said, consciousness required body-mind to function. Buddha said in MN 38, without a sense organ, there is no arising of consciousness.

With metta

Element
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby Element » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:10 am

Drolma wrote:...the skandhas are purely conditioned out of craving.

This is what I think, please feel free to correct me, everyone.

Drolma

You know I am always happy to correct you.

Buddha had no craving but still had khandas.

Khandas arise from the elements.

With metta

E
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby Element » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:13 am

retrofuturist wrote:There is a physical base for consciousness, but the physical base of consciousness is subject to impermanence (aniccata) too. If we accept that consciousness is not itself physical, yet that it is dependent on the physical, we can also accept that consciousness needn't be constrained by the laws of the physical universe.

I do not recall Buddha did not teach like this. Buddha said consciousness was dependent on a sense organ. However, the element of consciousness can transfer from life to life via the genetic programming with sperm and ovum. Buddha said gandhabba were fragrances in flowers. These are the same as reproductive seeds, delivered by the birds & the bees. Given they have within them the power to generate or create life, they are 'gods'.

With metta

Element
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby Individual » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:05 pm

Drolma wrote:
Individual wrote:
Drolma wrote:If you listen closely to TB Venerables and read the teachings carefully, they speak of "birth" in the bardo. The bardo thodol is another state of mind of course, not a place. This birth could also be stated as "becoming" in the bardo state. So it's not in conflict with the Theravadan approach as far as I can tell. The intermediary state and subtle body must arise simultaneously with the other two aformentioned factors for conception to occur.

Not a "place", of course, because "location" is a property of this bardo. Right? Being another state of mind, though, it could be compared to a place.


Hi Individual,

No, there's no location property. It's like when you're in the bardo of dreaming. Where are you?

In a dream bardo, there is a sense of time and space (and therefore location), if I dream about it (if my dream is vivid and lucid enough). That "sense of time and space," would be a property of that bardo, having nothing to do with time and space in the waking world, though the two are certainly comparable (in terms of the apparent skandhas).

Element wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:There is a physical base for consciousness, but the physical base of consciousness is subject to impermanence (aniccata) too. If we accept that consciousness is not itself physical, yet that it is dependent on the physical, we can also accept that consciousness needn't be constrained by the laws of the physical universe.

I do not recall Buddha did not teach like this. Buddha said consciousness was dependent on a sense organ. However, the element of consciousness can transfer from life to life via the genetic programming with sperm and ovum.

Element, based on your definition of the mechanism for rebirth, if I don't procreate, this being's (what could be called my) consciousness is not reborn.

With metta :heart:,
Individual
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby piotr » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:17 pm

Hi,

Peter wrote:I heard somewhere he did not teach "rebirth" but rather "again birth" as in "For those who have not made an end to craving, after death there will again be birth."


"Rebirth" and "again birth" means exactly the same, since prefix "re-" comes from Latin and indicates repetition:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=re-&db=luna
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:10 pm

Element wrote:
Drolma wrote:...the skandhas are purely conditioned out of craving.

This is what I think, please feel free to correct me, everyone.

Drolma

You know I am always happy to correct you.

Buddha had no craving but still had khandas.

Khandas arise from the elements.

With metta

E


This continues to be a point of confusion for me. How can skandhas be anything but conditioned? Or should I say, how is it possible that the Buddha conducted his enlightened activity while still bound by skandhas that were conditioned by old karma? Not that I want to take this too far off the birth-again topic.

:namaste:
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby Element » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:17 pm

OMG. I must earn a living and go to work. :hello: :lol:
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:32 pm

Element wrote:OMG. I must earn a living and go to work. :hello: :lol:


Have a good workday. I'll be pondering post-mortem continuance and pure/conditioned skandhas in the meatime :toilet:

:hug:
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:48 pm

In a dream bardo, there is a sense of time and space (and therefore location), if I dream about it (if my dream is vivid and lucid enough). That "sense of time and space," would be a property of that bardo, having nothing to do with time and space in the waking world, though the two are certainly comparable (in terms of the apparent skandhas).


I think I'm getting you now Individual :smile:

If you're asking if the bardo of dying is as "real" as the bardo of dreaming, bardo of becoming, bardo of present lives, etc. Then yes, it has locality in the sense that it's an experience that we perceive as real. I hope that helps.

Best,
Drolma
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