Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread
Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:51 am
retrofuturist wrote:Best Rebirth Thread Ever.
Metta,
Retro.
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retrofuturist wrote:Best Rebirth Thread Ever.
Metta,
Retro.
I think it's more likely that (in the context of Theravada Buddhism) that you are right and that Individual is wrong.dumb bonbu wrote:beginner's question - i'm slowly making my way through Abhidhamma in Daily Life, where i'm starting to learn about cittas and that no two cittas arise together, rather a citta rises, fades and then another immediately follows. judging by what you've said though Individual, i think my understanding must be wrong somewhere. i believed this process described helps explain rebirth as the ongoing process of cittas arising and fading after rupa has ceased. but if vinnana ceases at death without remainder then this would seem to contradict my understanding of the process being ongoing. can anyone point towards where i'm going wrong? thankyou
ah, okay i see. many thanks Retro!retrofuturist wrote:Greetings dumb bonbu,
I think it's more likely that (in the context of Theravada Buddhism) that you are right and that Individual is wrong.dumb bonbu wrote:beginner's question - i'm slowly making my way through Abhidhamma in Daily Life, where i'm starting to learn about cittas and that no two cittas arise together, rather a citta rises, fades and then another immediately follows. judging by what you've said though Individual, i think my understanding must be wrong somewhere. i believed this process described helps explain rebirth as the ongoing process of cittas arising and fading after rupa has ceased. but if vinnana ceases at death without remainder then this would seem to contradict my understanding of the process being ongoing. can anyone point towards where i'm going wrong? thankyou
Metta,
Retro.
Hi Retro,retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Drolma,There is continuation, but it's nothing different to the "ongoing process of becoming that is rooted in dependent origination" which you mention in your post. This becoming occurs now and isn't stopped by conventional death. Hence the term (which I started using, even though it's not an actual Theravadin expression per se) 'post-mortem continuation'.Drolma wrote:even post-mortem continuation implies that something is continuing.
Metta,
Retro.
I think our kammic tendencies towards becoming are far more resilient than this physical body which will die of its own accord after several decades of use. Unless the fetter of ignorance is destroyed, those mental forces that tend to craving and becoming will, in the form of a gandhabba, condition the arising of consciousness in a new embryo.Drolma wrote:What do you think of "post-mortem becoming?"
No worries, I understand perfectly what you're saying. Rebirth (or post-mortem continuation or post-mortem becoming) is taught pretty much the same way in my tradition. The only difference I can see is that the focus is more on purification than cessation in TB, and we say "subtle body" instead of gandhabba, but I think it's the same.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Drolma,
I think our kammic tendencies towards becoming are far more resilient than this physical body which will die of its own accord after several decades of use. Unless the fetter of ignorance is destroyed, those mental forces that tend to craving and becoming will, in the form of a gandhabba, condition the arising of consciousness in a new embryo.Drolma wrote:What do you think of "post-mortem becoming?"
Apologies if the above terminology is a bit loose. It's not something I tend to focus on in terms of my practice, here-and-now. What I do know from practice here and now is how unremitting craving and becoming is, especially in their subtle forms. They don't "re" but becoming occurs very frequently and much effort and diligence is required to slow and stop it, even temporarily.
Metta,
Retro.
Retrofuturist, there's a problem with that analogy, though: a candle lights another because the flame on one wick connects with the other wick. The final moment of consciousness in this life is located in a completely different place than the consciousness of the next life, sometimes even a completely different realm. Based on this, to maintain consistency with the orderliness of kamma, I've inferred that there seems to be the necessity for an "intermediary state" of some kind. By this, I don't mean necessarily an "intermediary state" of consciousness between death and birth, but a karmic foundation to explicitly connect the previous death with the following birth. And the bardos of Tibetan Buddhism seem to offer clarity on this karmic connection, in my opinion (if I may say so), without really contradicting the Theravadin perspective on rebirth.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Individual,The final moment of consciousness in this life conditions the first moment of consciousness for another conventional being... like that old analogy about lighting a candle with the light of another candle.Individual wrote:Continuation of causality, however. Not atta or vinnana. Ayu (vitality) and vinnana (consciousness) cease at death, without remainder.
Metta,
Retro.
It's worth remembering though that cessation (nirodha) refers to the cessation or extinguishment of becoming... not to some kind of physical and/or mental disintegration. When the is no 'becoming' there can be no association with death, hence terms to explain nibbana like 'the deathless', 'unbinding', the 'unconditioned', the 'unproduced'. Purification and cessation may not therefore be as far away as you may think.Drolma wrote:Rebirth (or post-mortem continuation or post-mortem becoming) is taught pretty much the same way in my tradition. The only difference I can see is that the focus is more on purification than cessation in TB, and we say "subtle body" instead of gandhabba, but I think it's the same.
Hi Individual,Individual wrote:Retrofuturist, there's a problem with that analogy, though: a candle lights another because the flame on one wick connects with the other wick. The final moment of consciousness in this life is located in a completely different place than the consciousness of the next life, sometimes even a completely different realm. Based on this, to maintain consistency with the orderliness of kamma, I've inferred that there seems to be the necessity for an "intermediary state" of some kind. By this, I don't mean necessarily an "intermediary state" of consciousness between death and birth, but a karmic foundation to explicitly connect the previous death with the following birth. And the bardos of Tibetan Buddhism seem to offer clarity on this karmic connection, in my opinion (if I may say so), without really contradicting the Theravadin perspective on rebirth.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Individual,The final moment of consciousness in this life conditions the first moment of consciousness for another conventional being... like that old analogy about lighting a candle with the light of another candle.Individual wrote:Continuation of causality, however. Not atta or vinnana. Ayu (vitality) and vinnana (consciousness) cease at death, without remainder.
Metta,
Retro.
I see Retro. This is indeed encouraging.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Drolma,
It's worth remembering though that cessation (nirodha) refers to the cessation or extinguishment of becoming... not to some kind of physical and/or mental disintegration. When the is no 'becoming' there can be no association with death, hence terms to explain nibbana like 'the deathless', 'unbinding', the 'unconditioned', the 'unproduced'. Purification and cessation may not therefore be as far away as you may think.Drolma wrote:Rebirth (or post-mortem continuation or post-mortem becoming) is taught pretty much the same way in my tradition. The only difference I can see is that the focus is more on purification than cessation in TB, and we say "subtle body" instead of gandhabba, but I think it's the same.
Metta,
Retro.
And now for the deviation!Drolma wrote:I see Retro. This is indeed encouraging.
Metta,On one occasion Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Maha Kotthita were staying near Varanasi in the Game Refuge at Isipatana. Then in the evening, Ven. Sariputta emerged from his seclusion and went to Ven. Maha Kotthita and exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Maha Kotthita, "Now then, friend Kotthita, does the Tathagata exist after death?"
"That, friend, has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata exists after death.'"
"Well then, friend Kotthita, does the Tathagata not exist after death?"
"Friend, that too has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata does not exist after death.'"
"Then does the Tathagata both exist and not exist after death?"
"That has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death.'"
"Well then, does the Tathagata neither exist nor not exist after death?"
"That too has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'"
"Now, friend Kotthita, when asked if the Tathagata exists after death, you say, 'That has not been declared by the Blessed One: "The Tathagata exists after death."' When asked if the Tathagata does not exist after death... both exists and does not exist after death... neither exists nor does not exist after death, you say, 'That too has not been declared by the Blessed One: "The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death."' Now, what is the cause, what is the reason, why that has not been declared by the Blessed One?"
(i. The aggregates)
"For one who loves form, who is fond of form, who cherishes form, who does not know or see, as it actually is present, the cessation of form, there occurs the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'
"For one who loves feeling...
"For one who loves perception...
"For one who loves fabrications...
"For one who loves consciousness, who is fond of consciousness, who cherishes consciousness, who does not know or see, as it actually is present, the cessation of consciousness, there occurs the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'
"But for one who doesn't love form, who isn't fond of form, who doesn't cherish form, who knows & sees, as it actually is present, the cessation of form, the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' doesn't occur.
"For one who doesn't love feeling...
"For one who doesn't love perception...
"For one who doesn't love fabrication...
"For one who doesn't love consciousness, who isn't fond of consciousness, who doesn't cherish consciousness, who knows & sees, as it actually is present, the cessation of consciousness, the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' doesn't occur.
"This is the cause, this is the reason, why that has not been declared by the Blessed One."
(ii. Becoming)
"But, my friend, would there another line of reasoning, in line with which that has not been declared by the Blessed One?"
"There would, my friend. "For one who loves becoming, who is fond of becoming, who cherishes becoming, who does not know or see, as it actually is present, the cessation of becoming, there occurs the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'
"But for one who doesn't love becoming, who isn't fond of becoming, who doesn't cherish becoming, who knows & sees, as it actually is present, the cessation of becoming, the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' doesn't occur.
"This, too, is a line of reasoning in line with which that has not been declared by the Blessed One."
(iii. Clinging/sustenance)
"But, my friend, would there another line of reasoning, in line with which that has not been declared by the Blessed One?"
"There would, my friend. "For one who loves clinging/sustenance, who is fond of clinging/sustenance, who cherishes clinging/sustenance, who does not know or see, as it actually is present, the cessation of clinging/sustenance, there occurs the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'
"But for one who doesn't love clinging/sustenance, who isn't fond of clinging/sustenance, who doesn't cherish clinging/sustenance, who knows & sees, as it actually is present, the cessation of clinging/sustenance, the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' doesn't occur.
"This, too, is a line of reasoning in line with which that has not been declared by the Blessed One."
(iv. Craving)
"But, my friend, would there another line of reasoning, in line with which that has not been declared by the Blessed One?"
"There would, my friend. "For one who loves craving, who is fond of craving, who cherishes craving, who does not know or see, as it actually is present, the cessation of craving, there occurs the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'
"But for one who doesn't love craving, who isn't fond of craving, who doesn't cherish craving, who knows & sees, as it actually is present, the cessation of craving, the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' doesn't occur.
"This, too, is a line of reasoning in line with which that has not been declared by the Blessed One."
"But, my friend, would there another line of reasoning, in line with which that has not been declared by the Blessed One?"
"Now, what more do you want, friend Kotthita? When a monk has been freed from the classification of craving, there exists no cycle for describing him."
Not a "place", of course, because "location" is a property of this bardo. Right? Being another state of mind, though, it could be compared to a place.Drolma wrote:If you listen closely to TB Venerables and read the teachings carefully, they speak of "birth" in the bardo. The bardo thodol is another state of mind of course, not a place. This birth could also be stated as "becoming" in the bardo state. So it's not in conflict with the Theravadan approach as far as I can tell. The intermediary state and subtle body must arise simultaneously with the other two aformentioned factors for conception to occur.
That's a good way of putting it, Retro. Well said.retrofuturist wrote:It's worth remembering though that cessation (nirodha) refers to the cessation or extinguishment of becoming... not to some kind of physical and/or mental disintegration. When the is no 'becoming' there can be no association with death, hence terms to explain nibbana like 'the deathless', 'unbinding', the 'unconditioned', the 'unproduced'. Purification and cessation may not therefore be as far away as you may think.
Hi Individual,Individual wrote:Not a "place", of course, because "location" is a property of this bardo. Right? Being another state of mind, though, it could be compared to a place.Drolma wrote:If you listen closely to TB Venerables and read the teachings carefully, they speak of "birth" in the bardo. The bardo thodol is another state of mind of course, not a place. This birth could also be stated as "becoming" in the bardo state. So it's not in conflict with the Theravadan approach as far as I can tell. The intermediary state and subtle body must arise simultaneously with the other two aformentioned factors for conception to occur.