About not kill any living being

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Peter,

Though I think it brings us into some difficult territory.

Yes, it can, and that is a good point.

I think if we're sincere enough in our attempts to seek release and attain the heartwood of the spiritual life, we will not deliberately fool ourselves into taking unwholesome activities as wholesome, just to support worldly samsaric endeavour. If there is a tendency to do that, we should try to observe it through Right Intention, Right Effort and Right Mindfulness... see the play of aversion, greed and delusion in action, and learn to see through it, and see the suffering of the sankhara.

People may require specific instructions and "here's what to do if..." scenarios in order to get started and build up that Right Intention, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and so on... but in time, the more worldly prescriptive instructions can be jettisoned for something that hits harder and more accurately at the issue of purifying the mind.

It reminds me of a sutta (?) where a certain forest monk had no need to remember all the 227 vinaya precepts and the Buddha accepted it as so. That these prescriptive rules were added over time in response to behaviours not according with the life of a bhikkhu shows that they are a practical safety net moreso than an integral component of the path.

Metta,
Retro.

[DNS]

What he did say though was "do not kill", because that protects the mind from hate and aversion, and in turn from creating bad kamma.

The fact an ant is deprived of its life if you accidentally step on it is not relevant to the pursuit of the Dhamma. Conventionally, you deprived the ant of its life, but that's by-the-by if there was no intentional to kill. Anyone who objects to this last statement might do well to consider Jainism, Mahayana or political activism as an alternative endeavour.

Hi Retro,

Intention of course is most important, but it is not only about the mind-state, but also the actions regardless of the mind-state. For example, sociopaths commit crimes and feel no remorse. They have a clear mind about their actions. They know they are violating societies laws and just do not care. They are care-free and go about their daily routines with no remorse. The Buddha specifically stated that a clear mind does not get you off the hook. One monk performed immoral acts and stated that "I feel neither ease nor discomfort, thus there will be no offense for me." The Buddha responded, "whether this foolish man felt or did not feel, there is an offense." (Vinaya, Suttavibhanga 3.36)

“All beings tremble before danger, all fear death. When a man considers this, he does not kill or cause to kill. All beings fear before danger, life is dear to all. When a man considers this, he does not kill or cause to kill.” Dhammapada, 129-130 In this passage, the Buddha encourages not killing or causing to kill on compassionate grounds toward the being and the pain he/she may feel, not the person doing the killing.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings David,

For example, sociopaths commit crimes and feel no remorse.

An interesting case to be sure, but why do they commit these crimes? Surely they are underpinned by either aversion or greed, and that these qualities only exist concurrent with ignorance? If so, that is the unwholesome kamma on the path of the sociopath. If not, what mindstates do you think they are rooted in?

Dhammapada, 129-130 In this passage, the Buddha encourages not killing or causing to kill on compassionate grounds toward the being and the pain he/she may feel, not the person doing the killing.

Yes, karuna is one of the brahma-viharas and that which helps cultivate the quality of karuna is a good thing.

Metta,
Retro.

[Rui Sousa]

Greetings Retro,

That these prescriptive rules were added over time in response to behaviours not according with the life of a bhikkhu shows that they are a practical safety net moreso than an integral component of the path.

That is how I see the percepts, as a protective net against unwholesome intentions. And also as a training because with time the benefits of restraint are more and more visible, and the desires that would lead to breaking the percepts get weaker and weaker.

Considering the teaching of not-self one could say that killing a being is just sending that being to another existence, possible to a less painful one. But it is a rude action towards that being, so are stealing, cheating and lying, and taking drugs is a rude treatment we give ourselves. Avoiding rudeness in our live leads us to diminish the three unwholesome roots, and helps us in our path towards liberation. That is how I see this protective net at work.

Another aspect I believe to be important on the subject of not killing is the importance of practising the Dhamma not only for our benefit, but also for the benefit of others. When I kill a mosquito and others see this the thought "There is nothing wrong with this" may pop into a mind of a being observing my action, then that being may kill deluded with that thought, giving rise to anger and ignorance in that mind. I am thinking on my son watching me capturing a mosquito and releasing him outside, instead of seeing his dad happy to have squashed a mosquito in the wall. The former image seems better than the later.

In the same line of thought yet another aspect is the mind moments that killing induces on the dying. The most obvious to me are the desire to continue existing, and anger. That desire leads to becoming, birth, ageing and death with all the resulting suffering. If it can be avoided and not provoked by our actions, then we are taking responsibility for such actions, being considerate and polite to others, helping them avoid the unwholesome states of mind that keeps them (and us) trapped in samsara.

So not killing, for me, is not only about the kamma on my mind, but also on other's minds. I guess what I am saying is that the application of the eight aspects of the path is not limited to ourselves and our minds, and should be applied to any mind-continuum that our actions can influence.

[cooran]

Hello all,


Sociopaths and Psychopaths
http://www.apsu.edu/oconnort/crim/crimtheory08.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris

[Terasi]

Hi, I am very new to Buddhism (I mean the real one!). Forgive me for being so shallow, but I am still struggling with even the most basic ones.

I read that buying meat is ok, but being a butcher is not a right livelihood. It's said that because we eat meat without intention to kill the cow (I am actually still struggling with this one too.... ), so it doesn't bring kamma (or maybe just a bit? Read some views, and got a bit confused here).

If intention is what brings kamma, how about those bloody dictators. If the dictator Mr. H ordered the execution of 1000 people, but then the organisation he controlled killed 6000000 more people, would Mr. H be bloody for those 6000000 people he indirectly killed? Or he'll just have to take responsibility for his personal LDM that led him to kill the 1000 people and to set up a bloody organisation?

[kc2dpt]

I read that buying meat is ok, but being a butcher is not a right livelihood.

I think we need to be more specific than "ok". Buying meat is not the same as killing a cow. If one vows to abstain from killing and one buys meat then one doesn't not by doing so break that vow.

It's said that because we eat meat without intention to kill the cow, so it doesn't bring kamma

Again, it is necessary to be specific. It doesn't not bring the kamma of killing. Buying meat is an intentional act and therefore produces some sort of kamma, just as does any intentional act. Even tying your shoe produces kamma.

If intention is what brings kamma, how about those bloody dictators. If the dictator Mr. H ordered the execution of 1000 people, but then the organisation he controlled killed 6000000 more people, would Mr. H be bloody for those 6000000 people he indirectly killed?

He would not incur the kamma of killing those 6000000. It seems to me likely he would incur some other negative kamma though.

[cooran]

Hello Terasi,

This might be a good start:

Questions on Kamma ~ Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha057.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris

[Terasi]

Thank you Peter and Cooran. I looked into the link. I must have been lazy and ignorant in my past life cos I am quite dull now, but I won't be greedy trying to grasp everything at once. Still got a long way to go.
It's too far fetched for a beginner to think about Mr.H's kamma fruits while I can't even handle mine. I did find some practical points I think I can attempt now:

When a willed action is performed it leaves a track in the mind, an imprint which can mark the beginning of a new mental tendency. It has a tendency to repeat itself, to reproduce itself, somewhat like a protozon, like an amoeba. As these actions multiply, they form our character. Our personality is nothing but a sum of all our willed actions, a cross-section of all our accumulated kamma.

As we change our habits gradually, we change our character, and as we change our character we change our total being, our whole world. That is why the Buddha emphasizes, so strongly the need to be mindful of every action, of every choice. For every choice of ours has a tremendous potential for the future.

First of all, not all Kamma has to ripen as a matter of necessity

One kamma can even be destroyed by another kamma. So it is important to understand that our present way of life, our attitudes and conduct, can influence the way our past kammas mature.

Now those are gems! It gives positive feeling and encouragement for me (us?) to attempt to be a better person by being mindful of every little thing, being aware that even tying shoelaces brings kamma.

[kc2dpt]

I'm glad you are feeling encouraged.
Remember too that there is good karma as well as bad.

[_Daniel_]

I think buddhanet.net has more material that cover the subject of karma. It can explain better than I. Or you can use the search function on this forum, I am sure we have a thread on this subject. As a Buddhist, I would ask why do you have a pistol in the first place?

_____________________________________________________________

Ben 10 Games

I could have a pistol, because I could be a policeman.

[phil]

I recommend a lidded cardboard box from some small-sized appliance for mosquitos, makes a much more effective catcher than a glass jar. Works for roaches too.
It's tough. There is often an instinctive slap in the direction of a mosquito that whines in your ear when you can't sleep on a hot summer night, and there is a moment of dosa behind that slap that makes it intentional. I've killed several in that way over the last few years, a reminder of how much attachment there is to sound sleep etc.

It could be that if you do kill, it's good to come here and report it to this virtual sangha. THere is a very good Sutta in Majjhima Nikaya in which the Buddha talks to his son Rahula and tells him to 'fess up to his bad deeds as a way of strengthening the conditions for abstaining from them in the future. So I have made the above confession...

Metta,

Phil

[Terasi]

Confession ya... I've killed a mosquito a few days ago. It was doing nothing, just standing on my arm, without thinking my other arm just whooosh.. snap! I read somewhere that our "automatic" reaction is not really automatic, it's a conditioned learning since we were small, we were told by our loving moms and nannies that mosquito is bad, then we practiced snapping them.. practice makes perfect, now it seems automatic.

But can I think of that reaction as the lack of mindfulness that I succumbed to "habit"? Or was it something else in play?

[kc2dpt]

But can I think of that reaction as the lack of mindfulness that I succumbed to "habit"? Or was it something else in play?

It is due to our habits that we wander in samsara.

[phil]

Confession ya... I've killed a mosquito a few days ago. It was doing nothing, just standing on my arm, without thinking my other arm just whooosh.. snap! I read somewhere that our "automatic" reaction is not really automatic, it's a conditioned learning since we were small, we were told by our loving moms and nannies that mosquito is bad, then we practiced snapping them.. practice makes perfect, now it seems automatic.

But can I think of that reaction as the lack of mindfulness that I succumbed to "habit"? Or was it something else in play?

Interesting...I would guess that there is something intrinsically aversion-causing in the vipaka that is the body or hearing sense that precedes our perception of a mosquito...and then another kind of aversion conditioned in the way you say above after the "mosquito" story plays out in a flash. It all happens so quickly. With a cockroach there is time to look at it and hear all the stories of how disgusting it is supposed to be. I'm glad to say that I have definitely moved beyond killing cockroaches....ah, but easy to say when I see one or two a month.