nibbana

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Re: nibbana

Postby jajas » Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:48 am

thanks ian, thereductor and jason,

I think now what to think off nibbana.
leaving me though with a puzzle off notselff :smile:
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Re: nibbana

Postby Reductor » Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:03 am

jajas wrote:thanks ian, thereductor and jason,

I think now what to think off nibbana.
leaving me though with a puzzle off notselff :smile:


Oh, not-self is a difficult thing to understand. The other two, impermanence and suffering, are easy enough to grasp from the start. Just a quick quote from the Buddha on not self and I'll let you go:

Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' But precisely because form is not self, form lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.'

[similarly for each of the five aggregates]

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Be well.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: nibbana

Postby jajas » Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:17 am

thanks thereductor,

would you please give your views on my next topic?

greets,

Marc
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Re: nibbana

Postby PeterB » Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:13 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings jajas,

jajas wrote:The puzzle for me seems to be in the understanding of the "noself".

You don't need to understand "noself".

You only need to understand that anything experienced, as classifiable by the five aggregates is not self, because it is impermanent, and because it is a basis for suffering when clung to.

Metta,
Retro. :)

This is a vital point imo. Dont try to understand a concept that is simply to stop you from trying to figure it all out with your mind. A meditation practice will prepare you for understanding. By the time you have understood the Buddhas teaching with your mind it wont matter..you will have seen the truth of it at a deeper level than your thinking mind.
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Re: nibbana

Postby Alex123 » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:28 am

jajas wrote:what do you think what happens when you are enlightend and die.


The 5 aggregates which are ultimately just stressful cease without remainder, nothing continues, and no new thing originates. Nibbana is the end, it is neither remainder nor start of something new. Peace at last!


The final word is

Cessation
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: nibbana

Postby dhamma_spoon » Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:14 am

Alex123 wrote:
jajas wrote:what do you think what happens when you are enlightend and die.


The 5 aggregates which are ultimately just stressful cease without remainder, nothing continues, and no new thing originates. Nibbana is the end, it is neither remainder nor start of something new. Peace at last!


The final word is

Cessation


Hi, Alex -

Talking about the end and cessation without remainder, isn't that the view of annihilationists?
Where and how is peace felt when there are no longer cognizance and body to feel it? :shock:

Dhamma_spoon :stirthepot:
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A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!
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Re: nibbana

Postby Reductor » Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:26 am

dhamma_spoon wrote:Hi, Alex -

Talking about the end and cessation without remainder, isn't that the view of annihilationists?
Where and how is peace felt when there are no longer cognizance and body to feel it? :shock:

Dhamma_spoon :stirthepot:


Annihilationists denied the continuance of the round, positing instead that a true-self is annihilated upon death. But Nibbana is the ending of the round, and not the end of a true-self. In the SN, nibbana is defined as the end of lust, hate and delusion, but I haven't read anything in the canon about an everlasting 'thing' which is nibbana. That is, nibbana is defined in terms of what ceases, not what continues.

Whether there is such a 'thing' or not, entering into it is not as important as the cessation of lust, hatred and delusion, the realization of which is not well served by conceptualizing a being passing away 'into' nibbana. So, for my money, I assign to Nibbana the quality of cessation, which is the total end of samsara.

Let go of all the aggregates, let go of continuance, let go of suffering... let go of samsara.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: nibbana

Postby chandrafabian » Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:38 am

dhamma_spoon wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
jajas wrote:what do you think what happens when you are enlightend and die.


The 5 aggregates which are ultimately just stressful cease without remainder, nothing continues, and no new thing originates. Nibbana is the end, it is neither remainder nor start of something new. Peace at last!


The final word is

Cessation


Hi, Alex -

Talking about the end and cessation without remainder, isn't that the view of annihilationists?
Where and how is peace felt when there are no longer cognizance and body to feel it? :shock:

Dhamma_spoon :stirthepot:


Dear Dhamma_spoon, in my understanding:
Annihilationist: a thing exist and then destroyed to nothing (ucheda)
Anatta: a process exist, and then stopped (nirodha)

Mettacittena,
fabian
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Re: nibbana

Postby dhamma_spoon » Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:00 pm

Alex123 wrote:
jajas wrote:what do you think what happens when you are enlightend and die.


The 5 aggregates which are ultimately just stressful cease without remainder, nothing continues, and no new thing originates. Nibbana is the end, it is neither remainder nor start of something new. Peace at last!


The final word is

Cessation


Hi, Alex -

Talking about the end and cessation without remainder, isn't that the view of annihilationists?
Where and how is peace felt when there are no longer cognizance and body to feel it? :shock:

Dhamma_spoon :stirthepot:[/quote]

Dear Dhamma_spoon, in my understanding:
Annihilationist: a thing exist and then destroyed to nothing (ucheda)
Anatta: a process exist, and then stopped (nirodha)

Mettacittena,
fabian[/quote]

Thanks, Fabian. Good point !

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Re: nibbana

Postby Zom » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:23 pm

Talking about the end and cessation without remainder, isn't that the view of annihilationists?
Where and how is peace felt when there are no longer cognizance and body to feel it?


There he said to the monks, "This nibbana is pleasant, friends. This nibbana is pleasant."
When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"
"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.

(AN 9.34 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html)

* * *

"It may happen, Ananda, that Wanderers of other sects will be saying this: 'The recluse Gotama speaks of the Cessation of Perception and Feeling and describes it as pleasure. What is this (pleasure) and how is this (a pleasure)?'
"Those who say so, should be told: 'The Blessed One describes as pleasure not only the feeling of pleasure. But a Tathagata describes as pleasure whenever and whereinsoever it is obtained.'"
(SN 36.19 http://www.vipassana.com/canon/samyutta/sn36-19.php)
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Re: nibbana

Postby dhamma_spoon » Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:52 pm

Zom wrote:
Talking about the end and cessation without remainder, isn't that the view of annihilationists?
Where and how is peace felt when there are no longer cognizance and body to feel it?


There he said to the monks, "This nibbana is pleasant, friends. This nibbana is pleasant."
When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"
"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.

(AN 9.34 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html)

* * *

"It may happen, Ananda, that Wanderers of other sects will be saying this: 'The recluse Gotama speaks of the Cessation of Perception and Feeling and describes it as pleasure. What is this (pleasure) and how is this (a pleasure)?'
"Those who say so, should be told: 'The Blessed One describes as pleasure not only the feeling of pleasure. But a Tathagata describes as pleasure whenever and whereinsoever it is obtained.'"
(SN 36.19 http://www.vipassana.com/canon/samyutta/sn36-19.php)


Hi, Zom (Attention: Fabian and others) -

AN 9.34 seems to say that where there is no feeling, there is pleasure. Do you think so? But can you explain to me, because I do not have a clue.
SN 36-19 translation is not meaningful to me. What does the following quote mean to you : "But a Tathagata describes as pleasure whenever and whereinsoever it is obtained." ?

Thank you very much.

:stirthepot:
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A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!
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Re: nibbana

Postby Alex123 » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:12 am

dhamma_spoon wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
jajas wrote:what do you think what happens when you are enlightend and die.


The 5 aggregates which are ultimately just stressful cease without remainder, nothing continues, and no new thing originates. Nibbana is the end, it is neither remainder nor start of something new. Peace at last!


The final word is

Cessation


Hi, Alex -

Talking about the end and cessation without remainder, isn't that the view of annihilationists?
Where and how is peace felt when there are no longer cognizance and body to feel it? :shock:

Dhamma_spoon :stirthepot:


As Fabian and thereductor have correctly stated, because ultimately no "one" is annihiliated it is not annihilation.


Only suffering (or potential to it) has ceased. As you know, everything is ultimately included in Dukkha. So Nibbana without remainder is final cessation of all suffering.




"Pleasant feeling, bhikkhus, should be seen as painful;" Sukhā, bhikkhave, vedanā dukkhato daṭṭhabbā -SN 36.5(5)
"Whatever is felt is included in suffering." yaṃ kiñci vedayitaṃ taṃ dukkhasmi’nti - SN 36.11(1)
"All formations are stressful." Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā’’ti , Dhp 278


As for your two quotes the pleasure is absence of suffering. The "pleasure" isn't meant to be a feeling in that context. It is peace that comes when EVERYTHING has ceased. Even the most refined citta (viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, call it as you will) has a tiny bit of dukkha and I don't want it.


With metta,

Alex
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: nibbana

Postby chandrafabian » Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:49 am

Alex123 wrote:what do you think what happens when you are enlightend and die.
"Pleasant feeling, bhikkhus, should be seen as painful;" Sukhā, bhikkhave, vedanā dukkhato daṭṭhabbā -SN 36.5(5)
"Whatever is felt is included in suffering." yaṃ kiñci vedayitaṃ taṃ dukkhasmi’nti - SN 36.11(1)
"All formations are stressful." Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā’’ti , Dhp 278

As for your two quotes the pleasure is absence of suffering. The "pleasure" isn't meant to be a feeling in that context. It is peace that comes when EVERYTHING has ceased. Even the most refined citta (viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, call it as you will) has a tiny bit of dukkha and I don't want it.


With metta,

Alex

Dear Alex,

I think the simile is like this: The peaceful mind is like we feel very inconvenient, in a very crowded place, and then all of a sudden this crowd dissappear altogether, leaving us alone and peaceful.

:anjali:
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