awakening myth?

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Re: awakening myth?

Postby Shonin » Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:29 am

5heaps wrote:
Shonin wrote:And even if it does exist it is likely to remain out of the range of my experience.

why say that?


Why? You can say 'it's just this' or 'just that' as much as you like. Yet while I have had some extraordinary insights, and transcendent, timeless experiences, and permanent, profound shifts in my practice and life, I have not experienced what may be called 'permanent, complete and perfect enlightenment' nor do I know of anyone who has. Thus it seems rather unlikely to occur.
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Re: awakening myth?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:32 am

Shonin wrote: I have not experienced what may be called 'permanent, complete and perfect enlightenment' nor do I know of anyone who has.
Of course, if you had, you would be fully awakened, and if you came here to then blab about it, I would then question if you really were.

On the other hand Dogen's sitting as an expression of awakening has something to say to this issue. With a maturing practice there is, I would think, an increasing number of moments of where there is a openness, a letting go, insight of what characterizes - essentially is - what is awakening. "Permanent, complete and perfect" would be nice.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: awakening myth?

Postby 5heaps » Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:12 am

Shonin wrote:I have not experienced what may be called 'permanent, complete and perfect enlightenment' nor do I know of anyone who has. Thus it seems rather unlikely to occur.

since perfect enlightenment doesnt come about as if by magic, look to its causes and conditions, namely the atta/anatta distinction
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
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Re: awakening myth?

Postby Shonin » Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:53 am

tiltbillings wrote:Of course, if you had, you would be fully awakened, and if you came here to then blab about it, I would then question if you really were.

On the other hand Dogen's sitting as an expression of awakening has something to say to this issue. With a maturing practice there is, I would think, an increasing number of moments of where there is a openness, a letting go, insight of what characterizes - essentially is - what is awakening. "Permanent, complete and perfect" would be nice.


Completely agree. This imperfect world and my imperfect awakening to it is my unfolding enlightenment. And this may be heretical here I know but I think holding onto the idea of "Permanent, complete and perfect" enlightenment can be an obstacle to opening up this, here and now.
Last edited by Shonin on Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: awakening myth?

Postby Shonin » Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:58 am

5heaps wrote:since perfect enlightenment doesnt come about as if by magic, look to its causes and conditions, namely the atta/anatta distinction


Not sure what you're saying here. I haven't implied that enlightenment occurs 'by magic' or 'without practice'. And I don't think there are many Buddhists who don't investigate Atta/Anatta. If that was all it took, we'd be inundated with Arahats.
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Re: awakening myth?

Postby 5heaps » Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:43 am

Shonin wrote:I haven't implied that enlightenment occurs 'by magic' or 'without practice'.

what does it mean to say that you can only verify perfect enlightenment by being perfectly enlightened? it means its disconnected from everything else - not dependent.

if its dependent, then the fact of perfect enlightenment is known when its causes and conditions are known.

right? you cant build a boat when you dont have an idea of a boat. you cant reach enlightenment when things appear to be self
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
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Re: awakening myth?

Postby Shonin » Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:01 am

5 Heaps,

To be honest, I'm still struggling to understand what you're saying.

However, I will say that even though things are sometimes deeply seen to be not-self, this state is impermanent - due presumably to the impermanence of underlying conditions.
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