So logically,
if it is a myth I could practice dilligently my whole life and never know it is.
or if it is not a myth then I could practice dilligently my whole life and maybe know it is, if I progress to the end.
If I was to meet a buddha I may not recognise them as such.
I love this.
Now I can practice with confidence
awakening myth?
Re: awakening myth?
yeah man, like totally!Bankei wrote:Was the Buddha a Buddha?
Re: awakening myth?
Goedert wrote:Hi daniel.daniel p wrote:Is awakening (in the Buddhist sense) a myth?
It is assumed that many great teachers were awakened. But were/are they really? One is generally discouraged from making enlightenment the focus or goal of one's practice. But occasionally we find ourselves questioning why we are even practicing.There may be some benefit, but if there is no enlightenment then why practice? Why even consider the teachings? Or to phrase it another way, does the path leading to the cessatation of dukkha actually lead to the cessatation of dukkha?
I have to say something for you.
There is a great differance in the interpretation of awakening in the sects of Buddhism. In the Theravadin contest, no, awakening is not myth but a reality that can be achieved by any human being and deva.
We should avoid "mix" the sects, they appear very similiar supeficially but in deepness they are way ahead different.
As tiltbilings said in another thread, enlightenment is to "lighten up".
Surely truth is truth no matter which sect.
Re: awakening myth?
One would hope so. But I think that one of the problems that Goedert is pointing to is that different schools use different terminology, and mixing them can lead to a lot of confusion.daniel p wrote: Surely truth is truth no matter which sect.
Mike
Re: awakening myth?
Yes, I do recognise doubt as one of the five hinderances. This is an area I am still trying to understand fully. It does seem open to interpretation. I think one should not be too cynical in ones doubts, dismissing all things that are not completely prooven. But one should also be careful not to fall into blind dogma. Otherwise I would adopt any religion or creed I came across.Paññāsikhara wrote:The cessation of doubt would be a good place to start.tiltbillings wrote:What do you mean by cessation?daniel p wrote:perhaps I should emphasise cessatation
Disagree? then I have a lovely bridge to sell you, at an unbeatable price.
Re: awakening myth?
Yes. I agreemikenz66 wrote:One would hope so. But I think that one of the problems that Goedert is pointing to is that different schools use different terminology, and mixing them can lead to a lot of confusion.daniel p wrote: Surely truth is truth no matter which sect.
Mike
kia ora.
- christopher:::
- Posts: 1327
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:56 am
Re: awakening myth?
Having some doubts about things we cannot know or experience presently or that sound a bit too metaphysical is not a problem, imo. Where doubt becomes a hindrance is if you doubt the path, the process that leads to greater happiness, less suffering.daniel p wrote:Yes, I do recognise doubt as one of the five hinderances. This is an area I am still trying to understand fully. It does seem open to interpretation. I think one should not be too cynical in ones doubts, dismissing all things that are not completely prooven. But one should also be careful not to fall into blind dogma. Otherwise I would adopt any religion or creed I came across.
The cessation of doubt would be a good place to start.
the beauty of the dharma though, just check it out and see for yourself.
In my case i learned meditation almost 30 years ago. The results were pretty unmistakable in just the first few days. That's the best way to vanquish doubt, imo.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
Re: awakening myth?
Sure you can! Of course! why not? Come on, just do it! Keep a stiff upper lip! Take it in stride! What have you got to lose?daniel p wrote:
I love this.
Now I can practice with confidence
If you practice then you at least gain a hobby, but very likely an increase of peace of mind too (ask anyone here). Whether or not the practice goes all the way to the end of suffering, to enlightenment, is only demonstrable to yourself by accomplishing it.
In the beginning you have to be content with small returns on practice. As the benefits become steadier and more pronounced you might then have more confidence in the big promise. If you just force yourself to accept a notion or promise that is totally alien to you, you'll just have more resistance. And then you're even further from accomplishing anything of value.
-
- Posts: 980
- Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:27 am
- Contact:
Re: awakening myth?
Kia ora, Daniel. Are you from Aotearoa?
When we begin the path, we ourselves are quite unqualified and unable to identify who or what is awakened.
We may, however, be able to identify some people who have virtuous qualities that are worthy of emulation.
Begin there. Emulate those people, learn from them, and follow their advice.
As our own virtuous qualities develop, we will be qualified to identify more subtle levels of virtuous states, in others.
Then find people who are even more highly developed, and emulate them, learn from them.
As we progress, we will gradually be able to assess the many virtuous qualities in a range of persons, including ourselves.
So, rather than simply falling into doubt about whether or not awakening is possible while we ourselves are simply unable to identify such qualities that awakening may entail, begin from where we are. One cannot walk the whole path in a single step, but one can certainly take one step at a time.
When we begin the path, we ourselves are quite unqualified and unable to identify who or what is awakened.
We may, however, be able to identify some people who have virtuous qualities that are worthy of emulation.
Begin there. Emulate those people, learn from them, and follow their advice.
As our own virtuous qualities develop, we will be qualified to identify more subtle levels of virtuous states, in others.
Then find people who are even more highly developed, and emulate them, learn from them.
As we progress, we will gradually be able to assess the many virtuous qualities in a range of persons, including ourselves.
So, rather than simply falling into doubt about whether or not awakening is possible while we ourselves are simply unable to identify such qualities that awakening may entail, begin from where we are. One cannot walk the whole path in a single step, but one can certainly take one step at a time.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
- Cittasanto
- Posts: 6646
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
- Location: Ellan Vannin
- Contact:
Re: awakening myth?
Paññāsikhara wrote:Kia ora, Daniel. Are you from Aotearoa?
When we begin the path, we ourselves are quite unqualified and unable to identify who or what is awakened.
We may, however, be able to identify some people who have virtuous qualities that are worthy of emulation.
Begin there. Emulate those people, learn from them, and follow their advice.
As our own virtuous qualities develop, we will be qualified to identify more subtle levels of virtuous states, in others.
Then find people who are even more highly developed, and emulate them, learn from them.
As we progress, we will gradually be able to assess the many virtuous qualities in a range of persons, including ourselves.
So, rather than simply falling into doubt about whether or not awakening is possible while we ourselves are simply unable to identify such qualities that awakening may entail, begin from where we are. One cannot walk the whole path in a single step, but one can certainly take one step at a time.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: awakening myth?
A simple truth - from Ajaan Dune quoted from "Gifts He Left Behind":
MettaA well-read layman was conversing with Luang Pu, saying, "I firmly believe that in our present day and age there are not just a few monks who have practiced to the point of reaching the paths, fruitions, and nibbana. So why don't they make their knowledge public, so that those who are interested in the practice will know of the levels of Dhamma they have attained, as a way of giving them encouragement and hope so that they'll accelerate their efforts to the utmost of their ability?"
Luang Pu answered,
"Those who have awakened don't talk of what they've awakened to, because it lies above and beyond all words."
Re: awakening myth?
Ajaan Dune.
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.
- BB
- BB
- Cittasanto
- Posts: 6646
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
- Location: Ellan Vannin
- Contact:
Re: awakening myth?
I have heard that both Ajahn Dtun, & Ajahn Anan both say something along the lines of - it takes one to know one!
I think there is a big difference between talking about the path, and talking about attainments of that path, it would be like a 3d being trying to explain to a 2d being what being a 3d being is like. if that makes sense with all that being
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: awakening myth?
Sceptical scrutiny is important in every aspect of our lives. It's what stops us from believing in bunk. It might be one of the so called hindrances to question whether awakening is real or not, but I think its important to ask such questions.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
-
- Posts: 939
- Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm
Re: awakening myth?
That's what dhamma vicaya is for... discrimination of states, one of the factors for awakening. Doubt by itself is an hindrance. Here is its definition (from here):Laurens wrote:Sceptical scrutiny is important in every aspect of our lives. It's what stops us from believing in bunk. It might be one of the so called hindrances to question whether awakening is real or not, but I think its important to ask such questions.
Dhamma-vicaya is the aspect of mindfulness that categorizes our experience in terms of some model or another. An important aspect of meditation is learning ways to categorize our distractions (the hindrances) as well as positive qualities that we can develop in meditation (the dhyana factors). Dhamma-vicaya is the act of comparing our inner experience to a mental map, so that we can navigate more effectively towards our goal.