Science-Earthquake

[Shonin]

That's no reason to assume he would spread unnecessary BS among his closest students, those who already had full faith in his words and had been exposed to his methods for many years with all kinds of audiences.

The simple explanation is that clearly profound and highly intelligent as he was, his understanding of geology and plate tectonics was not great by modern standards.

[lojong1]

Dang it okay I'm tapping. I was so sure that earthquakes had something to do with tectonic plate movement due to gravitational shifts through massive liquids above the crust and in the outer core, and that Buddha and modern science agreed at least that far.

[Shonin]

What is the origin of tapping? Trying to think of ways to keep the idea that the Buddha of the Pali Canon, is omniscient? Forget it.

[lojong1]

Not omniscient, just not a bullsheisser. Tapping as in MMA I give up--or rather, my arm's good and trapped, let's reset.

[Shonin]

Well I don't think that there's any reason to suppose he was deliberately misleading anyone. He was simply expressing himself in terms of the understand of his day (which was almost certainly his understanding too, as I see it). The earth is established upon liquid, the liquid upon the atmosphere, and the atmosphere upon space. Of course it is. Don't you know anything?

[rahula80]

Hi,

I took a look at the link provided by Lojong1.

Paul A. LaViolette looks like a credible scientist. He has published in peer-reviewed journal. His book Earth under Fire is based on his PhD dissertation. Anybody who think otherwise would care to comment?

His theory, too, may lend support to what the Buddha said.

Anyway, my POV is that to find scientific answers to scientific querries in the Suttas is improper and wrong.

Best wishes,
Rahula

[lojong1]

There's that smell again...rose scented animal feces.

[Kim OHara]

There's that smell again...rose scented animal feces.

Surely not ... I'm sure they're violet scented this time.

Kim

[Kim OHara]

... my POV is that to find scientific answers to scientific querries in the Suttas is improper and wrong.

I fully agree.
Science grows by building onto what it already knows, testing every addition as it does so.

Kim

[lojong1]

... my POV is that to find scientific answers to scientific querries in the Suttas is improper and wrong.

Will someone disambiguate this for me?

[Sanghamitta]

I am not at all sure that I know how to disambiguate...
But I think it means dont look to the Suttas for an explanation of the phenomenological universe which corresponds at all points to that of science.
Its not the job of the Suttas.
Of course if we see the Suttas as DivInely Inspired Scriptures...this could be problem . But if we dont, If we see them as a bit of an old mishmash of carefully recorded utterances of the Buddha , prevailing myth, and later additions.... then safely through the thickets of ambiguity we go.

[Shonin]

Quite

[lojong1]

But I think it means dont look to the Suttas for an explanation of the phenomenological universe which corresponds at all points to that of science.
Its not the job of the Suttas.

Rahula80 hasn't disagreed with this so I guess it's what he meant.
I'm looking to the suttas to see what is in the suttas, no more no less. Knowing that the Pali vocabulary would have been extremely limited in this field; seeing the various translations and how easily they are interpreted with entirely Western connotation; not knowing the translators' competence in seismology and related fields, not to mention my own ignorance -- for these reasons I'm not ready to say this earthquake bit contradicts current scientific findings--and much less willing to say it will always appear wrong.

"Gravitational wave is a concept of Einstein's General Theory of Relativity given in 1916. According to the theory, accelerating mass should radiate gravitational waves as accelerating charges radiate radio waves. Gravitational wave is a deformation of space-time. An object exposed to gravitational waves should become alternatively longer and thinner, shorter and broader. The variation however so small (10-17 in dimensionless) that it does not yet possible to detect. Several direct detectors of gravitational are being built in USA. The best known of these are Laser Interferometer Ground Observatory (LIGO) and Laser Interferometer Space Array (LISA). In Bangladesh, theoretical research on pulsar, gravitational waves and earthquake prediction from space are being done at the Department of Mathematics and Natural Sciences of BRAC University." http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/n ... nid=155247

"We have computed perturbations in the nighttime mid-latitude F2 region ionosphere that could be produced by internal atmospheric gravity waves generated before strong earthquakes through ionospheric Joule heating due to the seismogenic electric field of short duration. There is a strong anisotropy of the atmospheric gravity wave effect with respect to the imminent earthquake epicentre, the electron density changes being maximum poleward and equatorward of the epicentre and being minimum eastward and westward of it. It should be noted that the duration of the electron density perturbation in the F2 region ionosphere is much longer than the duration of the primary precursor of an earthquake – the enhancement of the vertical electric field at the Earth’s surface, which initiates the atmospheric gravity wave generation. This fact is important from the practical point of view of predicting catastrophic earthquakes." http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... archtype=a

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elchin_Khalilov
Gravitational Waves and Geodynamics by Khalilov (in Russian) http://book-ias-he.org/Qravitatsionnie_ ... namika.pdf
http://www.khalilov.biz/pdf/About%20pos ... es%203.pdf

[Sherab]

I'm looking to the suttas to see what is in the suttas, no more no less. Knowing that the Pali vocabulary would have been extremely limited in this field; seeing the various translations and how easily they are interpreted with entirely Western connotation; not knowing the translators' competence in seismology and related fields, not to mention my own ignorance -- for these reasons I'm not ready to say this earthquake bit contradicts current scientific findings--and much less willing to say it will always appear wrong.

Make sense to me. In addition, I agree that we should not look to the suttas for "explanation of the phenomenological universe" as that is not the objective of the suttas and as whatever was stated in the suttas would conform with the extant knowledge.

"Gravitational wave is a concept of Einstein's General Theory of Relativity given in 1916. According to the theory, accelerating mass should radiate gravitational waves as accelerating charges radiate radio waves. Gravitational wave is a deformation of space-time. An object exposed to gravitational waves should become alternatively longer and thinner, shorter and broader. The variation however so small (10-17 in dimensionless) that it does not yet possible to detect. Several direct detectors of gravitational are being built in USA. The best known of these are Laser Interferometer Ground Observatory (LIGO) and Laser Interferometer Space Array (LISA). In Bangladesh, theoretical research on pulsar, gravitational waves and earthquake prediction from space are being done at the Department of Mathematics and Natural Sciences of BRAC University." http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/n ... nid=155247

Since the effect of gravitational wave is hard to detect, I would think that extraterrestial gravitational waves would hardly have any impact on terrestial seismic activity.

"We have computed perturbations in the nighttime mid-latitude F2 region ionosphere that could be produced by internal atmospheric gravity waves generated before strong earthquakes through ionospheric Joule heating due to the seismogenic electric field of short duration. There is a strong anisotropy of the atmospheric gravity wave effect with respect to the imminent earthquake epicentre, the electron density changes being maximum poleward and equatorward of the epicentre and being minimum eastward and westward of it. It should be noted that the duration of the electron density perturbation in the F2 region ionosphere is much longer than the duration of the primary precursor of an earthquake – the enhancement of the vertical electric field at the Earth’s surface, which initiates the atmospheric gravity wave generation. This fact is important from the practical point of view of predicting catastrophic earthquakes." http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... archtype=a

This looks more like a description of the effect of changes in terrestial gravitational field from seismic activity of the earth itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elchin_Khalilov
Gravitational Waves and Geodynamics by Khalilov (in Russian) http://book-ias-he.org/Qravitatsionnie_ ... namika.pdf
http://www.khalilov.biz/pdf/About%20pos ... es%203.pdf

This probably has the closest correspondence to the suttic description of a cause of earthquake.

[lojong1]

"mahāpathavī udake patiṭṭhitā, udakaṃ vāte patiṭṭhitaṃ, vāto ākāsaṭṭho"
(Rhetorical) What does it mean to be "patiṭṭhitā"?
Paul Heckert: "Earth and Solid Planets Were Once Liquid.
"Surface tension will pull liquids and gasses into a spherical shape but not solids. The fact that Earth, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars and the larger moons of Jupiter or Saturn are all spherical tells astronomers that they were once liquid. These worlds are all solid now, but were liquid when they first formed. The smaller moons of Jupiter or Saturn, and asteroids are not spherical because they were never liquid." http://www.suite101.com/content/why-are ... nd-a189153

[beeblebrox]

[ . . . ] Knowing that the Pali vocabulary would have been extremely limited in this field; seeing the various translations and how easily they are interpreted with entirely Western connotation; not knowing the translators' competence in seismology and related fields, not to mention my own ignorance -- for these reasons I'm not ready to say this earthquake bit contradicts current scientific findings--and much less willing to say it will always appear wrong.

Very good points, lojong.

"Gravitational wave is a concept of Einstein's General Theory of Relativity given in 1916. According to the theory, accelerating mass should radiate gravitational waves as accelerating charges radiate radio waves.

2,500 years from now the science will likely to be replaced by something entirely different... a system that is far more advanced, and much better according to the views of future beings who created it.

These future beings, (some of them highly respected practitioners within their own new field), will probably try to puzzle out why Einstein would claim that one's own family members are integral parts of Physics. This is their interpretation of the term "relativity".

It's based on the very few literatures that they still have available. These books are written in a bunch of obscure languages called "English", "German", etc. They'll also wonder why it seemed like so many people thought that his idea of relativity was brilliant.

They'll accuse Einstein of claiming that the gravity originated from oceans (along with the radio frequencies). This is their interpretation of the "waves". Kinda similar to how some people right now are puzzling out why the Buddha said that the liquids, fire, and "atmosphere" were what caused the earthquakes.

These future beings will not realize just how far away removed their own interpretations are from Einstein's own language. They will not notice just how completely wound up their own minds really are, within their own advanced, different ways of viewing things.

There will be absolutely no understanding of anything that Einstein said, just as long as these future beings' minds remain unliberated, from their own system....

I guess it's a good thing that this is exactly the sort of thing that the Buddha's Dhamma is for. (That is... if it's still around 2,500 years from now.)

[Mawkish1983]

Incidentally, it's a common misconception that the plates float on a liquid. The magma in the mantle is 95-99% solid.

We've been looking at misconceptions on the teacher training course and this one in particular came up. Text books were shown to contain at least one error per page on average on the subject of Earth sciences.

And yet most of the world is happy with the misconception. It works for them. Media (films like 'The Core') help cement the misconceptions. Fact is, the mantle transmits S-waves, so is mostly solid.

On an unrelated note, about 20% of children in the UK leave school believing in the continuum matter theory, rejecting the particle matter theory,

Just thought I'd share.

[SamKR]

The Buddha was explaining this in accord with cosmology as it was understood at the time.

Whether he did know, or could have known otherwise, are rather speculative and ultimately unrewarding questions, that are neither connected with dukkha nor its cessation.

Having a science background, seeing such passages in the suttas IS dukkha to me.

One of the four unthinkables (said to be declared by the Buddha): Thinking about the range of a Buddha's understanding.
Period.

He was so clever, he must have guessed that people will raise questions about his knowledge of the world, and he needs to keep their mouth shut.

[lojong1]

Incidentally, it's a common misconception that the plates float on a liquid. The magma in the mantle is 95-99% solid.

I had mentioned [having read] that the outer-core is liquid; the outer-core is below the mantle. Doesn't matter much to me either way, I'm just using this to spice my Pali lessons. Although it does strike me as a little white of us to say the suttas are wrong about the cause of earthquakes. We still disagree on what the inner core of our planet is really like, except to say that certain waves bounce off and others don't; the speed of gravity only began to be tested in the last 8 years; and magnetic field research is so far from concluded that a single magnetic field (not electromagnetic) propagation speed cannot yet be detected.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_core: "The outer core of the Earth is a liquid layer about 2,260 kilometers thick which lies below its mantle."
Another interesting connection between liquids, winds and earthquakes: "Convection of liquid metals in the outer core creates the Earth's magnetic field. This magnetic field extends outward from the Earth for several thousand kilometers, and creates a protective bubble around the Earth that deflects the Sun's solar wind."
Winds from the sun impacting a giant space bubble made by liquids thousands of kilometers under the Earth's crust--liquids that remain physically connected to the bubble through invisible and non-existent yet very real lines of force? Now if that sounds wacky even to the 21st century that came up with it...
Vāto ākāsaṭṭho makes direct contact with Earth's core liquids first. Please don't look in my suttas for something to disagree with, as that is not my job or objective.

[Shonin]

Although it does strike me as a little white of us to say the suttas are wrong about the cause of earthquakes. We still disagree on what the inner core of our planet is really like,

Well it's a pretty safe bet that it isn't 'wind'