Science-Expansion/Contraction of the Universe?

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Science-Expansion/Contraction of the Universe?

Postby rahula80 » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:53 pm

Hi,

Any scientific support for this?

Brahmajala Sutta:

"There comes a time, bhikkhus, when after the lapse of a long period this world contracts......But sooner or later, bhikkhus, after the lapse of a long period, there comes a time when this world begins to expand once again....."

I am thinking of Paul Steinhardt's Endless Universe.

What do you think?

Best wishes,
Rahula
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Re: Science-Expansion/Contraction of the Universe?

Postby Hanzze » Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:03 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Science-Expansion/Contraction of the Universe?

Postby Hanzze » Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:04 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Science-Expansion/Contraction of the Universe?

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:35 pm

Yes, sounds like science to me. Just like a supernova, stars and planet are formed and perish and then reconstitute. The Buddha got this one pretty exact to the science, imo.

And even the other ones, too, although not exactly according to the science (in regard to earthquakes, etc.) but at least he explained it by referring to natural and scientific causes, mostly.
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Re: Science-Expansion/Contraction of the Universe?

Postby Individual » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:02 pm

I believe this isn't strictly Buddhist, btw. Perhaps the Hindus appropriated the idea, but I have heard of a Hindu cosmology which describes the universe as expanding and contracting with Brahma's breath

I found it interesting when I read it, though, yeah.
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Re: Science-Expansion/Contraction of the Universe?

Postby Ytrog » Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:15 pm

Hanzze wrote:
rahula80 wrote:Hi,

Any scientific support for this?

Brahmajala Sutta:

"There comes a time, bhikkhus, when after the lapse of a long period this world contracts......But sooner or later, bhikkhus, after the lapse of a long period, there comes a time when this world begins to expand once again....."

I am thinking of Paul Steinhardt's Endless Universe.

What do you think?

Best wishes,
Rahula


As I know is our our universe (translated as world) just doing like that. Now we have the time of expanding. The power of gravity against the power of kinetic will cause a different movement at a point. Like a stone on a shirr will move back after running out of kinetic power.
Big Bag - Big Crash, yes. But there is not only one world (universe) and also not a circle of the same. That would case something lasting :rofl:

It's currently one of the theories, so it's not proven yet in a scientific sense.

Isn't this principle called kappa in the dhamma?
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.


mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments


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Re: Science-Expansion/Contraction of the Universe?

Postby Sherab » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:47 pm

Science's theory of the universe is still work-in-progress:

http://www.physorg.com/news199591806.html
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Re: Science-Expansion/Contraction of the Universe?

Postby d.sullivan » Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:23 am

Recent observations of the cosmic backround radiation indicate that the universe is not going to have a "Big Crunch," but will instead expand infinitely. In fact, astronomers are pretty certain that not only are we expanding indefinitely, but that the rate at which the universe is expanding is increasing, which has astronomers pretty flustered, 'cause they can't figure out why that would be the case.
Every blade in the field,
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As beautifully as it was taken up.

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Re: Science-Expansion/Contraction of the Universe?

Postby fig tree » Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:08 am

d.sullivan wrote:Recent observations of the cosmic backround radiation indicate that the universe is not going to have a "Big Crunch," but will instead expand infinitely. In fact, astronomers are pretty certain that not only are we expanding indefinitely, but that the rate at which the universe is expanding is increasing, which has astronomers pretty flustered, 'cause they can't figure out why that would be the case.

I think this last comment fails to give astronomers enough credit.

Cosmology is built on Einstein's theory of gravitation (general relativity). In the original version of it, Einstein had a term in it (i.e. something added on one side of the equation) which has been dubbed the "cosmological constant". It makes a certain logical sense in the theory. It's as if you had to decide how much energy there is in a vacuum. It tells you that even if you have no matter, you will still have a (non-zero) gravitational field. He wanted it partly to make it possible to have a model of the universe in which there was no expansion or contraction. He took it back, though, saying he shouldn't have included it. This is equivalent to saying that it is exactly zero. It turns out that his model with no expansion or contraction would be unstable, and besides, astronomers have observed that expansion is taking place. At that point, the model with no cosmological constant was a simpler explanation of the facts.

More recently, however, astronomers have attempted to use observations of the expansion of the universe to measure the cosmological constant (and see for one thing whether it could be simply zero). The increasing rate of expansion is well explained by having a non-zero (and repulsive) cosmological constant. When people make forecasts like, by a certain time in the future, the local cluster of galaxies will be all by itself without any visible stars outside of it, they're forecasting based on Einstein's theory with the measured cosmological constant plugged into it. So in spite of his having considered it a mistake, it seems Einstein's original theory works better.

Now it's true that there's a sense in which nobody understands fully why there is a cosmological constant and why it has the value that it does. All kinds of different features of fundamental physics could make a contribution to the value of the constant. In quantum physics, the vacuum is not just a simple blank space with nothing in it; it has subtle potentials in it, that one might expect to contribute to the cosmological constant. It's not assumed that the cosmological constant is just the way things are, with nothing more basic to explain why it's the way it is. On the other hand, a complete explanation seems likely to require a pretty comprehensive theory of physics. Like, one would have to know whether string theory is an accurate theory or not.

As far as I know, however, not knowing why the cosmological constant is what it is, is not a source of embarrassment for anybody. The cause of the accelerating expansion is believed pretty confidently to be the cosmological constant; it's just that we don't know all the factors that give rise to it.

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Re: Science-Expansion/Contraction of the Universe?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:34 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Science-Expansion/Contraction of the Universe?

Postby rahula80 » Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:48 am

Hi,

> Recent observations of the cosmic backround radiation indicate that the universe is not going to have a "Big Crunch,"....<

Not really. According to Martin Bojowald, the previous universe whose collapse appears to have given birth to the one we live in today.
http://www.science.psu.edu/news-and-eve ... 6-2007.htm

What happened before the Big Bang?
Martin Bojowald
Nature Physics 3, 523 - 525 (2007)

Bojowald's research is echoed by Alejandro Corichi & Parampreet Singh
http://www.physorg.com/news126955971.html

Quantum bounce and cosmic recall
Authors: Alejandro Corichi, Parampreet Singh
Phys.Rev.Lett.100:161302 (2008)
http://arxiv.org/abs/0710.4543


See also:
Big Bounce
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce
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Re: Science-Expansion/Contraction of the Universe?

Postby Paññāsikhara » Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:41 am

Individual wrote:I believe this isn't strictly Buddhist, btw. Perhaps the Hindus appropriated the idea, but I have heard of a Hindu cosmology which describes the universe as expanding and contracting with Brahma's breath

I found it interesting when I read it, though, yeah.


Actually, it is historically the other way around. The western Brahmanic cultures picked up these eternal cycle ideas from the eastern Magadha culture. Buddhism is one of the forms of Magadha culture, as is Jaina, Ajivika, and the teachings of Kapila. (cf. Bronkhorst 2007: 69ff)
Have to careful what sources one picks for these things, otherwise claims of historical influence will be back to front.
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Re: Science-Expansion/Contraction of the Universe?

Postby d.sullivan » Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:36 pm

rahula80 wrote:Hi,

> Recent observations of the cosmic backround radiation indicate that the universe is not going to have a "Big Crunch,"....<

Not really.




According to my astronomy professor, the consensus among astronomers today, given the current evidence (like observations of 1a supernova) is that the rate of our expansion is indeed increasing.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/3137

Also, if you read the Wikipedia page you posted, you'll see one of the objections to the "Big Bounce" is precisely what I have already stated. Click on the "future of an expanding universe" link, and you'll find this little nugget:

"Observations of the cosmic background radiation by the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe suggest that the universe is spatially flat and has a significant amount of dark energy.[6] In this case, the universe should continue to expand at an accelerating rate. The acceleration of the universe's expansion has also been confirmed by observations of distant supernovae.[5] If, as in the concordance model of physical cosmology (Lambda-cold dark matter or ΛCDM), the dark energy is in the form of a cosmological constant, the expansion will eventually become exponential, with the size of the universe doubling at a constant rate."

It seems pretty clear at this point that our rate of expansion is increasing, and could result in a Big Freeze. However, the cyclical model of the universe and the current theory that the universe is expanding exponentially are not necessarily mutually exclusive, either, so we could both be right. From the Wiki page on the "Big Crunch":

"Recent experimental evidence (namely the observation of distant supernova as standard candles, and the well-resolved mapping of the cosmic microwave background) have led to speculation that the expansion of the universe is not being slowed down by gravity but rather accelerating. However, since the nature of the dark energy that drives the acceleration is unknown, it is still possible that it might eventually reverse sign and cause a collapse.[3]"
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Re: Science-Expansion/Contraction of the Universe?

Postby d.sullivan » Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:53 pm

fig tree wrote:
d.sullivan wrote:Recent observations of the cosmic backround radiation indicate that the universe is not going to have a "Big Crunch," but will instead expand infinitely. In fact, astronomers are pretty certain that not only are we expanding indefinitely, but that the rate at which the universe is expanding is increasing, which has astronomers pretty flustered, 'cause they can't figure out why that would be the case.

I think this last comment fails to give astronomers enough credit.

As far as I know, however, not knowing why the cosmological constant is what it is, is not a source of embarrassment for anybody. The cause of the accelerating expansion is believed pretty confidently to be the cosmological constant; it's just that we don't know all the factors that give rise to it.

Fig Tree


My post was not an attack on astronomers. It was my own astronomy professor who told me that astronomers don't totally understand why we there is accelerating expansion, and far from being embarrassed, he seemed excited about the prospect. And I share in his excitement. Given how good we are at learning about the universe, and how very much there is to learn, it must be a very fun time to be an astronomer!

I don't know how you gathered from my post that astronomers should be embarrassed, but that was certainly not the intention of my post. My point was merely to point out that the universe does not necessarily, and may very well not, follow a cyclical model.

Thanks for the informative response!
Every blade in the field,
Every leaf in the forest,
Lays down its life in its season,
As beautifully as it was taken up.

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Re: Science-Expansion/Contraction of the Universe?

Postby Jason » Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:27 am

d.sullivan wrote:Recent observations of the cosmic backround radiation indicate that the universe is not going to have a "Big Crunch," but will instead expand infinitely. In fact, astronomers are pretty certain that not only are we expanding indefinitely, but that the rate at which the universe is expanding is increasing, which has astronomers pretty flustered, 'cause they can't figure out why that would be the case.


Lawrence Krauss mentions this in his talk at the 2009 AAI Conference.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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