Refuge in Oneself

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Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 19, 2009 3:28 pm

kidd wrote:The ‘ego’ is an intellectualization of the experience of self-awareness; the ‘I’, the ‘self’ exists only in our minds; our notions of superiority and inferiority are figments of our imagination; we are, each and every one, simply, completely, and only, human beings; none of us is any more than this, none of us is any less. We spend our lives telling ourselves it is otherwise, wasting precious time and energy we could be spending seeing and enjoying the truth.



Please draw your point out a bit in relation to this topic.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby kidd » Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:25 am

tiltbillings wrote:
kidd wrote:The ‘ego’ is an intellectualization of the experience of self-awareness; the ‘I’, the ‘self’ exists only in our minds; our notions of superiority and inferiority are figments of our imagination; we are, each and every one, simply, completely, and only, human beings; none of us is any more than this, none of us is any less. We spend our lives telling ourselves it is otherwise, wasting precious time and energy we could be spending seeing and enjoying the truth.



Please draw your point out a bit in relation to this topic.


Taking refuge in one's self, raised questions about the existence of 'self'; I shared a thought on that.

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Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:42 am

kidd wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
kidd wrote:The ‘ego’ is an intellectualization of the experience of self-awareness; the ‘I’, the ‘self’ exists only in our minds; our notions of superiority and inferiority are figments of our imagination; we are, each and every one, simply, completely, and only, human beings; none of us is any more than this, none of us is any less. We spend our lives telling ourselves it is otherwise, wasting precious time and energy we could be spending seeing and enjoying the truth.



Please draw your point out a bit in relation to this topic.


Taking refuge in one's self, raised questions about the existence of 'self'; I shared a thought on that.


It could be that "taking refuge in one's self" is a figurative mode of speech? What do you make of this passage?

Dhammapada 165. By oneself [atta] is evil done; by oneself [atta] is one defiled. By oneself [atta] is evil left undone; by oneself [atta] is one made pure. Purity and impurity depended on oneself [atta]; no one can purify another.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:52 am

kidd wrote:The ‘ego’ is an intellectualization of the experience of self-awareness; the ‘I’, the ‘self’ exists only in our minds; our notions of superiority and inferiority are figments of our imagination; we are, each and every one, simply, completely, and only, human beings; none of us is any more than this, none of us is any less. We spend our lives telling ourselves it is otherwise, wasting precious time and energy we could be spending seeing and enjoying the truth.

Let me respond to this a bit more detail. “Ego,” though I am not sure what you exactly mean by it, would be a subset of what we might simply call self. “Intellectualization of the experience of self-awareness” suggests that it is something thought out, but self, the sense of “I am,” precedes thinking. You are quite correct that the self “exists” in our minds. Where else would it be?

Monks, whatever contemplatives or priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. SN III 46.

figments of our imagination
In a sense, yes, which means, of course, that “notions of superiority and inferiority” are interdependently arisen factors of our experience.

we are, each and every one, simply, completely, and only, human beings; none of us is any more than this, none of us is any less.
Sure, and part of the experience is the sense of self and ego. It has an evolutionary function that to some degree ensures our survival.

The important point is that until we are awakened, we have to deal with our “self.” There is no point in pretending that we do not have this experience of self:

Dhp XII
PTS: Dhp 157-166
Attavagga: The Self
translated from the Pali by
Acharya Buddharakkhita

157. If one holds oneself dear, one should diligently watch oneself. Let the wise man keep vigil during any of the three watches of the night.

158. One should first establish oneself in what is proper; then only should one instruct others. Thus the wise man will not be reproached.

159. One should do what one teaches others to do; if one would train others, one should be well controlled oneself. Difficult, indeed, is self-control.

160. One truly is the protector of oneself; who else could the protector be? With oneself fully controlled, one gains a mastery that is hard to gain.

161. The evil a witless man does by himself, born of himself and produced by himself, grinds him as a diamond grinds a hard gem.
162. Just as a single creeper strangles the tree on which it grows, even so, a man who is exceedingly depraved harms himself as only an enemy might wish.

163. Easy to do are things that are bad and harmful to oneself. But exceedingly difficult to do are things that are good and beneficial.

164. Whoever, on account of perverted views, scorns the Teaching of the Perfected Ones, the Noble and Righteous Ones — that fool, like the bamboo, produces fruits only for self destruction.

165. By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depended on oneself; no one can purify another.

166. Let one not neglect one's own welfare for the sake of another, however great. Clearly understanding one's own welfare, let one be intent upon the good.


It is within this “self” that is the basis for awakening.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:02 am

tiltbillings wrote:One thing you are missing, kannada, this is the "Discovering Theravada" section, which is pretty much self explanatory by its title - "Discovering Theravada". What has become plainly obvious is that idiosyncratic posts do not quite fit here, since what you are posting is not necessarily Theravada. They are better off in the free-for-all section, where you are quite welcome post. I'll address your objections there. Your stuff here is going way out of the "Discovering Theravada" parameters.


Thank you Tilt. I wrote my last post before seeing this.

:anjali:
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Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:06 am

Here is more of the quote which I posted in the OP. Perhaps it will get things back on track a bit? There is no mention of an atta in here.

Now we come down to the real meaning, the whole point, of what I am saying here. It is that I am my own refuge, I am my own protector. Nobody can actually give me protection. I must help myself by clearly understanding what I have to take up and what I have to get rid of. I have to find this out myself and then do it, and that the true practice of Dharma. It is through the practice of Dharma that I create the causes and conditions for my own happiness and for achieving wisdom, compassion, and the ability to help others.

I have to find and widen my own understanding and aspiration. I have to cultivate compassion and wisdom within myself. Using method and wisdom together, I will try to achieve the power to work for the benefit of myself and others. Doing that I will be able to protect myself, and I will transcend suffering through my own efforts. In order to do this, I have to depend on this path—the Dharma. I have to depend on the Buddha—the teacher. I have to depend on the other beings who are experienced—the Sangha.

Ultimately, it depends on myself, because I am the primary one who is responsible. Everything has to happen based on that—that I am responsible for myself and for my future—­and in order to work on this I have to depend on the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha. This understanding is the root, the essence, of refuge.
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Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby Raga Mala » Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:21 am

"On the internal level, the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha are the skillful qualities we develop in our own minds in imitation of our external models. For instance, the Buddha was a person of wisdom, purity, and compassion. When we develop wisdom, purity, and compassion in our own minds, they form our refuge on an internal level. The Buddha tasted Awakening by developing conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, and discernment. When we develop these same qualities to the point of attaining Awakening too, that Awakening is our ultimate refuge. This is the point where the three aspects of the Triple Gem become one: beyond the reach of greed, anger, and delusion, and thus totally secure."
-Thanissaro Bhikkhu, in Refuge
"It is easier to shout 'STOP!' than to do it." -Treebeard
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