How ignorance started?

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How ignorance started?

Postby unspoken » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:45 am

A being is here due to craving, and when there's craving, theres conscious, if there's conscious there's ignorance. Can anyone tell me how ignorance started? Is it related to some physical movement quantum thingy?
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Re: How ignorance started?

Postby Son » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:22 am

Without ignorance we see that time is not an ultimate reality of the truth, merely a samsaric phenomenon. We all conceive that ignorance must have begun at some point prior to this time because we cling to our relative notions that everything is inherently separated and thus thinking as though time is ultimately real. To put it simply, it is because of ignorance that we think of ignorance as having a beginning point. Once we realize that we have eliminated ignorance (Enlightenment), then we see directly that it was a constant fact of our existence, which was beginningless, endless, and not-self (anatta).
You mentioned a "physical movement quantum thingy". I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I could elaborate on the metaphysics related to this phenomenon. It is actually quite simple and useful.
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Re: How ignorance started?

Postby Taco » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:35 am

Monks, this samsara is without discoverable beginning. A first point is not discerned of beings roaming and wandering on hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving.
-Samyutta Nikaya 15, "Connected Discourses on Without Discoverable Beginning"

The Buddha taught that samsara (and so I assume also ignorance, craving etc) is without discoverable beginning, but it sure would be nice is someone here could tell us how it all started. And even after knowing it we should try to end it, and that is something where the teachings of the Buddha might help us.
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Re: How ignorance started?

Postby Son » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:16 pm

It is the beginning of beginninglessness that we seek to discover because that means Enlightenment. You cannot discover the beginning of that which comes out of past things, into impermanence--that which is anatta. To see what doesn't come, what is not-come, what is unconditioned, is to see Nibbana.
It is when we split the one anatta that we see this beginningless-endless expanse of change and time, and call it atta.
A seed sleeps in soil.
It's cold and alone, hopeless.
Until it blooms above.
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Re: How ignorance started?

Postby Individual » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:20 pm

Taco wrote:
Monks, this samsara is without discoverable beginning. A first point is not discerned of beings roaming and wandering on hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving.
-Samyutta Nikaya 15, "Connected Discourses on Without Discoverable Beginning"

The Buddha taught that samsara (and so I assume also ignorance, craving etc) is without discoverable beginning, but it sure would be nice is someone here could tell us how it all started. And even after knowing it we should try to end it, and that is something where the teachings of the Buddha might help us.

Why would it be nice? It would not necessarily be nice, because it might be very strange and disheartening. You have to consider: what would the consequence be of knowing the ultimate origin and what's the intent in knowing? If you answer that, maybe I could share some interesting theories.
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: How ignorance started?

Postby Taco » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:43 pm

Individual wrote:Why would it be nice? It would not necessarily be nice, because it might be very strange and disheartening. You have to consider: what would the consequence be of knowing the ultimate origin and what's the intent in knowing? If you answer that, maybe I could share some interesting theories.

Well, the opener would get an answer and seeing

How ignorance started?[SOLVED]

would make me smile. :)

So please be nice and give us The Answer, not theories or speculations. Don't worry about the consequences, live in the present!
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Re: How ignorance started?

Postby Individual » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:24 pm

Taco wrote:
Individual wrote:Why would it be nice? It would not necessarily be nice, because it might be very strange and disheartening. You have to consider: what would the consequence be of knowing the ultimate origin and what's the intent in knowing? If you answer that, maybe I could share some interesting theories.

Well, the opener would get an answer and seeing

How ignorance started?[SOLVED]

would make me smile. :)

So please be nice and give us The Answer, not theories or speculations. Don't worry about the consequences, live in the present!

Hmm. If I spoke, though, that would also just be ignorance. It's acting & thinking correctly and not speaking inappropriately which would be the answer; being mindful and not obsessive is the answer. But I'm stuck here right now for another several minutes, so I'll engage in some crazy-sounding pseudo-Buddhist speculation, if you don't mind... (Others might unfortunately)

You take for granted that this is life and this is the present, but at a certain point, it can feel wrong; like an illusion you're trapped in and need liberation from. It is like a Chinese finger-trap. Let go and you're free; pondering the complexities of the trap and of your fingers is an obstacle to letting go. Buddha's simile of the arrow.

But if it could satisfy your curiosity (at the risk of me seeming crazy?)... Maybe "life is suffering" goes much further than you might imagine. So far that whatever you might call peace is also suffering, whatever you might call enlightenment or liberation is suffering, whatever you might call not-suffering is also actually suffering. What do I mean?

If you had infinite bliss, it might start to feel too neutral (the mind adapts). If you had omnipotence and omniscience, it might be boring because if you can do anything, and know what you could do, what it would feel like, how it would start and end, you really have would no reason to do anything because everything is equally boring. Like a Buddhist monk being trapped forever in a room full of electronic games and toys he doesn't want to use.

And you're all alone. You're so perfect that nobody could ever be like you and, even if they were, they would have that kind of non-dual sense of identity in which "you and I" are the same thing, quickly resulting in reunification of mind and body, so it's still just a continuum and not really anything that's separate for very long.

Infinite bliss, knowledge, etc., results in infinite boredom and loneless. So you want to die. But you can't, because you're... whatever you want to call it. You're the Big Mind, God, the Purusha, the Cosmic Buddha, the most highly evolved form of life sitting at the very edge of space-time. (At the very end of time, in the future, and at the very top of what we call space)

So, what do you do?

MIND GAMES!! :rofl:

You start to create divisions of luminous beings, in which each has a portion of your knowledge (actually it should just be called knowledge, "your" knowledge can be misleading), with the fraction missing referred to as "ignorance"; ignorance of impermanence and notself. The remaining fraction often results in the beings doing interestingly unique stuff which is neat, but they also sometimes do silly things and hurt eachother, but... it's just a game, remember, and it's supposed to be fun.

The beings (you, me, everybody) get carried away, though, by the ignorance. Not recognizing the knowledge that they have or being mindful of the knowledge of others, the ignorance festers and multiplies, just as beings do, through even further divisions of mind and reality. The beings before were luminous, asexual, and few in number, but the corruption keeps going and going. They lose their ability to shine and become a great multitude of beings in a physical sense; our world now. And if this corruption continues, they could become even more divided, until each one is just a tiny speck of near-invisible dust, which knows almost nothing, but is absolutely filled with desire; the realm of hungry-ghosts and the hell-realms. Or they could go back to shining again by means of jhana, but even then, they easily drift backwards...

This mind-game called Samsara seems like an endless cycle of joy and suffering, but it can be good or bad depending how you look at it. Though it seems like a futile and never-ending circle of conflicting feelings and emotions repeating itself through one life, it also gives you a better appreciation for genuine happiness, knowledge, and virtue; and if you recover from it, you shine more than ever; like a newborn star.

So, this is where ignorance came from. Realizing impermanence and notself -- not through words or rituals, but through acting rightly with genuine and mindful compassion for oneself and others (the Noble Eightfold Path) -- there is the cessation of ignorance and rebirth; the universe also collapses, though, unfortunately, when it's done well. Nobody has actually done it in the past, so it keeps going on. Or maybe it did, but re-expanded. Or maybe I'm completely full of it and there's a traditional Theravadin here who could correct my silliness.

Actually don't believe the stuff above. I was just kidding around with silly speculations. :D

It just goes to show you the kind of thoughts and actions that can result when you ponder this stuff too much.

Only you can solve your own ignorance. Nobody solves ignorance for anybody else. :)
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: How ignorance started?

Postby plwk » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:27 am

Hope these helps...
Sammaditthi Sutta
"And what is ignorance, what is the origin of ignorance, what is the cessation of ignorance, what is the way leading to the cessation of ignorance?
Not knowing about suffering, not knowing about the origin of suffering, not knowing about the cessation of suffering, not knowing about the way leading to the cessation of suffering — this is called ignorance.
With the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance. With the cessation of the taints there is the cessation of ignorance.
The way leading to the cessation of ignorance is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, Right View... Right Concentration."
"When, friends, a noble disciple understands the taints, the origin of the taints, the cessation of the taints, and the way leading to the cessation of the taints, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at this true Dhamma.
"And what are the taints, what is the origin of the taints, what is the cessation of the taints, what is the way leading to the cessation of the taints? There are three taints: the taint of sensual desire, the taint of being and the taint of ignorance.
With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of the taints.
With the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of the taints.
The way leading to the cessation of the taints is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration.
Yoga Sutta
"And how is there the yoke of ignorance?
There is the case where a certain person does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, and the escape from the six sense media.
When he does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, and the escape from the six sense media, then -- with regard to ignorance concerning the six sense media -- he is obsessed with not-knowing.

Sabbasava Sutta
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

Anguttara-Nikaya: Ekanipata: Ekadhammapali: Pañhamavagga
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Re: How ignorance started?

Postby Alex123 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:29 am

unspoken wrote:A being is here due to craving, and when there's craving, theres conscious, if there's conscious there's ignorance. Can anyone tell me how ignorance started? Is it related to some physical movement quantum thingy?



Cause of ignorance are 3 taints ( the taint of sensual desire, the taint of being and the taint of ignorance).
Cause of taints is also ignorance.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html

So according to the above, there doesn't seem to be an absolute first point. Just conditionality where ignorance causes more ignorance.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: How ignorance started?

Postby ground » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:42 am

unspoken wrote:A being is here due to craving, and when there's craving, theres conscious, if there's conscious there's ignorance. Can anyone tell me how ignorance started? Is it related to some physical movement quantum thingy?


It cannot be shown that it is physical and it cannot be shown that it is non-physical. Both, physical and non-phsical would be an inherent contradiction. And neither physical nor non-physical is illogical because something is either physical or the opposite.

What remains?

Metaphors ... similes ...

What about this one (?) [Caution: This is not an officially certified one!]:
First there is a "stirring", then there is "attention" focusing on that "stirring". When there is "attention" that "stirring" becomes "experience" and the grasping of "experience" by thought is the manifestation of ignorance.

Kind regards
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Re: How ignorance started?

Postby unspoken » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:47 pm

Understand now. Thank you guys. But need to practice more to really experience it and understand it fully

With metta
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