are animals that kill reborn in hell?

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are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby budo » Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:01 pm

Do the animals that kill, such as lions,tigers,snakes,scorpions,sharks,crocodiles,eagles,hawks,hyenas,etc.. are they reborn in hell?
“An effect can become a cause, reinforcing the original cause and producing the same effect in an intensified form, and so on indefinitely.” - George Orwell
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby PeterB » Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:32 pm

Perhaps they already have been.
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby Taco » Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:44 pm

I believe that a tiger that has during its lifetime a mind state of an average tiger will likely be reborn as a tiger. And they were born as tigers in the first place because that was close to their mind state in the previous life. Very difficult for a tiger to be a 'good' tiger or a 'bad' tiger.
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby budo » Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:48 pm

PeterB wrote:Perhaps they already have been.


So does that mean they will return to hell again once they kill again? Like an infinite loop, if they become a crocodile, they go back to hell, then are reborn as a tiger, go back to hell. This only stops when they are reborn as a non killing creature?
“An effect can become a cause, reinforcing the original cause and producing the same effect in an intensified form, and so on indefinitely.” - George Orwell
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby budo » Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:50 pm

Taco wrote:I believe that a tiger that has during its lifetime a mind state of an average tiger will likely be reborn as a tiger. And they were born as tigers in the first place because that was close to their mind state in the previous life. Very difficult for a tiger to be a 'good' tiger or a 'bad' tiger.


So what if one is reborn as a human that is in a cannibalistic society, and it is "average" for people to kill each other and eat each other, does that mean they will be reborn as cannibals?

So karma is then relative to society?
“An effect can become a cause, reinforcing the original cause and producing the same effect in an intensified form, and so on indefinitely.” - George Orwell
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby PeterB » Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:50 pm

I dont think in such literal terms Budo.
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby budo » Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:52 pm

PeterB wrote:I dont think in such literal terms Budo.


Does that mean you hunt? If you do not think in literal terms, then do you act in literal terms?
“An effect can become a cause, reinforcing the original cause and producing the same effect in an intensified form, and so on indefinitely.” - George Orwell
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby Taco » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:08 pm

budo wrote:
Taco wrote:I believe that a tiger that has during its lifetime a mind state of an average tiger will likely be reborn as a tiger. And they were born as tigers in the first place because that was close to their mind state in the previous life. Very difficult for a tiger to be a 'good' tiger or a 'bad' tiger.


So what if one is reborn as a human that is in a cannibalistic society, and it is "average" for people to kill each other and eat each other, does that mean they will be reborn as cannibals?

So karma is then relative to society?

More is expected from humans because of their higher intelligence and sense of morality. If that would be how all humans behaved, humans would be just an other species of savage animals, with no understanding of right and wrong. And Gotama as bodhisatta would still be in the heavens waiting for a better time and more developed species on earth.

Just my own speculations... :)
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby budo » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:11 pm

Taco wrote:
budo wrote:
Taco wrote:I believe that a tiger that has during its lifetime a mind state of an average tiger will likely be reborn as a tiger. And they were born as tigers in the first place because that was close to their mind state in the previous life. Very difficult for a tiger to be a 'good' tiger or a 'bad' tiger.


So what if one is reborn as a human that is in a cannibalistic society, and it is "average" for people to kill each other and eat each other, does that mean they will be reborn as cannibals?

So karma is then relative to society?

More is expected from humans because of their higher intelligence and sense of morality. If that would be how all humans behaved, humans would be just an other species of savage animals, with no understanding of right and wrong. And Gotama as bodhisatta would still be in the heavens waiting for a better time and more developed species on earth.

Just my own speculations... :)


This is reasonable, but that means that karma is controlled by something intelligent. Something intelligent enough to know "this species is not capable of high intelligence, therefore it will be reborn in the same plane".

Maybe the question I am asking cannot be answered, as perhaps the inner workings of karma is unknowable.
“An effect can become a cause, reinforcing the original cause and producing the same effect in an intensified form, and so on indefinitely.” - George Orwell
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby Taco » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:51 pm

Kamma is intention and I think it's different from instinct. The actions of higher beings are more about intentions and the actions of lower beings are more about instincts. Instincts don't produce kammic consequences and the lower beings have to wait for a lottery jackpot to be reborn in the higher planes of existence. I trust that they filled out some coupons in their countless previous lives. Not sure though if any of this is the correct Theravada view. :lol:

Chiggala Sutta: The Hole
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there. A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east. A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north. And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years. Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?"

"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."

"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. Now, this human state has been obtained. A Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, has arisen in the world. A doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world.

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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby cooran » Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:19 pm

Hello all,

It might be worthwhile to read the Causes of different rebirths as taught in the Suttas by the Buddha:

Rebirth
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-su ... ml#rebirth

with metta
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:20 pm

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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby Annapurna » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:06 pm

budo wrote:
Maybe the question I am asking cannot be answered, as perhaps the inner workings of karma is unknowable.


Quite so, I think, Budo.

The Buddha said we should not think about the intricate details of kamma too much, -only a supreme Buddha can see it clearly.
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby Ben » Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:43 pm

Without intending to derail this thread, I think a far more pressing question is "what do I need to do to be saved from a future rebirth in hell - or any of the woeful realms?"
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby Annapurna » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:38 pm

You are right, and we have a clear message too. :smile:
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:59 pm

I was thinking along the same lines as Ben. While I have concern about the future of my cats, I can't do much to prevent them from being cats. But I can do all I can to try not to be reborn in the woeful states.
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby octathlon » Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:40 am

Is a cat that is kept indoors or otherwise prevented from killing animals better off than a cat that is left outside where it will naturally do so?
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby plwk » Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:36 am

Is a cat that is kept indoors or otherwise prevented from killing animals better off than a cat that is left outside where it will naturally do so?

They will still smack the cockroaches, lizards, ants, spiders and occasionally the other dog/cat that doesn't comply with the TOS :tongue:
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it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
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If this single thing is recollected and made much,
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby ground » Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:55 am

budo wrote:Do the animals that kill, such as lions,tigers,snakes,scorpions,sharks,crocodiles,eagles,hawks,hyenas,etc.. are they reborn in hell?


If there would be a "deed as such" that would be the cause to be reborn in hell then yes, but it is the mental context of deeds that is crucial. And since humans do not know the mental context of other species the consequences of deeds of animals are hidded for humans. Even the consequences of deeds of humans would be hidden for humans if the Buddha would not have taught them.
The Buddha's teachings refer to the sphere of humans (not animals). Why? Because he taught the means for humans to liberate themselves.

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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby budo » Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:58 am

plwk wrote:
Is a cat that is kept indoors or otherwise prevented from killing animals better off than a cat that is left outside where it will naturally do so?

They will still smack the cockroaches, lizards, ants, spiders and occasionally the other dog/cat that doesn't comply with the TOS :tongue:


So if animals are allowed to kill animals without much karmic consequence because it's merely instinct and not intent, then would it be okay to have a few cats around to protect humans from pests or dangerous critters?
“An effect can become a cause, reinforcing the original cause and producing the same effect in an intensified form, and so on indefinitely.” - George Orwell
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