are animals that kill reborn in hell?

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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:19 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby Ben » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:53 am

Hanzze wrote:Dear friends,

I guess it is always a question of intention. Killing out of fear, never taught or understood an other way (beware of excuses and back doors that "higher" beings like to use) ... I guess that stays neutral. It also has to do with the emotion that drives to such an act.

_/\_
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby Taco » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:01 am

budo wrote:So if animals are allowed to kill animals without much karmic consequence because it's merely instinct and not intent, then would it be okay to have a few cats around to protect humans from pests or dangerous critters?

It might be okay for the cats, but I'm not sure about the owner...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... html#prec2
A second important point to note is that killing need not occur directly through the body. The volition to take life can also express itself through the door of speech. This means that the command to take life, given to others by way of words, writing, or gesture, is also considered a case of killing. One who issues such a command becomes responsible for the action as soon as it achieves its intention of depriving a being of life.
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:07 am

are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Image

Image

Probably not.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:27 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:32 pm

Hanzze wrote:Dear tiltbillings,

it could happen to this fox, I carefully tried to explain it four month.
Could, assuming there is a hell, but why would a fox go to hell when it trying to feed its young?

But normally a fox would not realize the mouse as a sentiment being, so he follows mostly his fear to survive. It is all a question of judgment, which less exists in an animal. As long there is no knowledge and there is no ill-will behind it would not lead to a action that turns us a step down.
I don't think you are in place to judge another's kamma.

I think it is different when a fox is fighting an other fox, I guess for a fox there is enough empathy so it could be different in that issue.
You are now just making up things.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:36 pm

Ohh it was a jackal
Once upon a time while Brahmadatta was king of Benares, the Bodhisatta came into the world as a young Lion in the region of Himalaya. Of the same family there were some younger brothers, and one sister; and all of them lived in a Golden Cave.

Now hard by this cave was a cave of Crystal on a silver hill, where a jackal lived. By and by the Lions lost their parents by the stroke of death. Then they used to leave the Lioness, their sister, behind in the cave, while they ranged for food; which when they obtained, they would bring it back for her to eat.

Now the Jackal had caught sight of this Lioness, and fell in love with her; but while the old Lion and Lioness lived, he could win no access. Now, when the seven brothers went to seek food, out he came from his Crystal Cave, and made all haste to the golden Cave, where taking, his stand before the young Lioness, he addressed her slily with these seductive and tempting words:

"O Lioness, I am a fourfoot creature, and so are you. Therefore do you be my mate, and I will be your husband! We will live together in friendship and amity, and you shall love me always!"

Now on hearing this the Lioness thought to herself, "This Jackal here is mean amongst beasts, vile, and like a man of low caste: but I am esteemed to be one of royal issue. That he to me should so speak is unseemly and evil. How can I live after hearing such things said? I will hold my breath until I shall die." Then, bethinking her awhile, "Nay," quoth she, "to die so would not be comely. My brothers will soon be home again; I will tell them first, and then I will put an end to myself."

The Jackal, finding that no answer came, felt sure she cared nothing for him; so back he went to his Crystal Cave, and lay down in much misery.

Now one of the young Lions, having killed a buffalo, or an elephant, or what not, himself ate some of it, and brought back a share for his sister, which he gave her, inviting her to eat. "No, brother," says she, "not a bite will I eat; for I must die!" "Why must that be?" he asked. And she told him what had happened. "Where is this Jackal now?" he asked. She saw him lying in the Crystal Cave, and thinking he was up in the sky, she said, "Why, brother, cannot you see him there on Silver Mountain, lying up in the sky?" The young Lion, unaware that the Jackal lay in a Crystal Cave, and deeming that he was truly in the sky, made a spring, as lions do, to kill him, and struck against the crystal: which burst his heart asunder, and falling to the foot of the mountain, he perished straightway. Then came in another, to whom the Lioness told the same tale. This Lion did even as the first, and fell dead by the mountain foot.

When six of the brother Lions had perished in this way, last of all entered the Bodhisatta. When she had told her story, he enquired where was the Jackal now? "There he is," said she, "up in the sky, above Silver Mountain!" The Bodhisatta thought "Jackals lying in the sky? Nonsense. I know what it is: he is lying in a Crystal Cave." So he repaired to the mountain's foot, and there he saw his six brothers lying dead. "I see how it is," thought he; these were all foolish, and lacked the fullness of wisdom; not knowing that this is the Crystal Cave, they beat their hearts out against it, and were killed. This is what comes of acting in rashness without due reflection;" and he repeated the first stanza:-

"Who rashly undertakes an enterprise,

Not counting all the issue may arise,

Like one who burns his mouth in eating food

Falls victim to the plans he did devise."
After repeating these lines, the Lion continued: "My brothers wanted to kill this Jackal, but knew not how to lay their plans cleverly; So they leapt up too quickly at him, and so came by their death. This will not do; but I will make the Jackal burst his own heart as he lies there in the Crystal Cave." So he espied out the path whereby the Jackal used to go up and down, and turning that way he roared thrice the lions' roar, that earth and heaven together were all one great roaring! The Jackal lying in the Crystal Cave was frightened and astounded, so that his heart burst; and he perished on the spot incontinently.

This story contains not all, but at the end THE MORAL: "Follish thought bring disaster"
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:40 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:46 pm

Hanzze wrote:..."
But really has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:48 pm

Hanzze wrote:
Could, assuming there is a hell, but why would a fox go to hell when it trying to feed its young?

Just feeding there young would not lead to hell, but thought more than feeding and survive.
I suppose when those foxes look at fox porngraphy they are on their way to hell.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:13 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:16 pm

Hanzze wrote:You have ideas tiltbillings... But it is really amazing if you observe the dogs on the street, believe me there are less sick movies crazy like them.
Away from this desire which is not only human, I wished I had a possibility to write some stories about dog, friendship and there life. Let see.
Quite honestly, I have no idea of what you are talking about, and it is not just your fractured English. I don't think you understand dogs, either.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby 2600htz » Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:17 pm

Yeap,

I imagine there are several types of killing, and each one have they own merit or demerit:

if u kill to survive, if u kill to save lifes, if u kill to watch the world burn, if u kill because u enjoy the suffering of others,etc...

Each one makes a different life tendency.
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby budo » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:42 am

tiltbillings wrote:are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Image

Image

Probably not.


I guess animals don't need to go to hell to have people cut them up like that. It happens on earth already. I guess that makes earth a hell for them. Perhaps hell for humans, is the same as earth for animals. A demon sparing human lives, could be the same as a human sparing animal lives, and thus both are upgraded to a higher plane. It makes sense now.
“An effect can become a cause, reinforcing the original cause and producing the same effect in an intensified form, and so on indefinitely.” - George Orwell
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby Sylvester » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:41 am

OK, let's leave aside the unpleasant prospect that instinctive animal behaviour may be lumped under the undeliberate sancetanas mentioned in the Bhumija Sutta, SN 12.25.

What about the Anusayas? If even a witless baby can be subject to five Anusayas (MN 64), how about the furry critters?

And according to SN 12.38, even if kamma is not generated, the attendant anusayas to any feeling are by themselves sufficient to bring about rebirth.

I suspect this could be the reason why the Chiggala Sutta #1 SN 56.47 and the Balapandita Sutta MN 129 are careful to couch the problem in this manner -

Monks, suppose a man were to throw into the ocean a yoke with a single hole in it. Then the east winds carry it westwards; the west winds carry it eastwards; the north winds carry it south¬wards; the south winds carry it northwards. Suppose a blind turtle were to come up from the ocean depths once in a hundred years.
What do you think, monks? Would that blind turtle put his neck through the yoke with a single hole in it?”
“Even if it could, bhante, it would only happen after a very long time.”
“Even then, monks, it is more likely that the blind turtle would put his neck through the single-holed yoke than would the fool, once fallen into a lower world, regain the human state, I say! Why is that?
Because in the lower worlds THERE IS NO DHARMA-FARING, no doing of what is wholesome, no performance of merit. There they eat each other, preying on the weak.
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby octathlon » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:10 am

And yet there are animals who perform selfless acts of devotion for humans, such as service animals, those who have saved lives, protected children, or even just pets who show unconditional love and give comfort to people. That must be very good merit.
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Postby Sylvester » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:53 am

I agree, and I would love to believe that my 'lil babies will see a better rebirth based on their affection for my family.

The Theravada position on this seems a little ambivalent. On the one hand, you have the stories in the Commentaries (eg the toad who was reborn as a deva, the Paleilai monkey and pachyderm, Eravana's promotion to the Heaven of the 33).

Yet, I'm told that the Kathavatthu says that these stories are not to be taken literally, but as allegories. The objection was something along the lines that the heavens have no place for menageries, or something like that.
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