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SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions - Dhamma Wheel

SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

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SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:06 am

SN 12.20 PTS: S ii 25 CDB i 550
Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu


The Buddha explains that when dependent co-arising is clearly seen and understood, wrong views and confusion disappear
.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Dwelling at Savatthi... "Monks, I will teach you dependent co-arising & dependently co-arisen phenomena. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks replied. The Blessed One said:

"Now what is dependent co-arising? From birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death. Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this regularity of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma, this this/that conditionality. The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, makes it plain, & says, 'Look.' From birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death.

"From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth...

"From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming...

"From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance...

"From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving...

"From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling...

"From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact...

"From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media...

"From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form...

"From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness...

"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this regularity of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma, this this/that conditionality. The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, makes it plain, & says, 'Look.' From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. What's there in this way is a reality, not an unreality, not other than what it seems, conditioned by this/that. This is called dependent co-arising.

"And what are dependently co-arisen phenomena? Aging & death are dependently co-arisen phenomena: inconstant, compounded, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to passing away, subject to fading, subject to cessation.

"Birth is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"Becoming is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"Clinging/sustenance is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"Craving is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"Feeling is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"Contact is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"The six sense media are dependently co-arisen phenomena...

"Name-&-form is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"Consciousness is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"Fabrications are dependently co-arisen phenomena...

"Ignorance is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon: inconstant, compounded, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to passing away, subject to fading, subject to cessation. These are called dependently co-arisen phenomena.

"When a disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they have come to be, it is not possible that he would run after the past, thinking, 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past?' or that he would run after the future, thinking, 'Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' or that he would be inwardly perplexed about the immediate present, thinking, 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' Such a thing is not possible. Why is that? Because the disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they have come to be."

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:08 am

SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Translator: John D. Ireland

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... passage-18

"I will teach you dependent arising, bhikkhus, and phenomena (dhamma) that are dependently arisen...

"Now what, bhikkhus, is Dependent Arising?

"With birth as condition, aging-and-death comes to be. Whether Tathaagatas[38] appear or do not appear, this nature of things continues, this relatedness of phenomena, this regularity of phenomena, this law of conditionality. A Tathaagata fully awakens and penetrates to it. Having fully awakened and penetrated to it, he announces it, teaches it, makes it known, presents it, discloses it, analyzes it, and explains it. 'See' he says, 'with birth as condition, aging-and-death comes to be. With becoming as condition, birth comes to be.' Whether Tathaagatas appear or do not appear...

"...'See,' he says, 'With ignorance as condition, volitional activities come to be.'

"So, bhikkhus, that which herein is a reality and not an unreality and not otherwise, this law of conditionality — this, bhikkhus, is called Dependent Arising.

"Now what, bhikkhus, are dependently arisen phenomena?

"Aging-and-death, bhikkhus, is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen; of a nature to decay, to pass away, to be destroyed and to cease.

"Birth... becoming... grasping... ignorance, bhikkhus, is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen; of a nature to decay, to pass away, to be destroyed and to cease. These, bhikkhus, are called dependently arisen phenomena.

"When a noble disciple has well seen this dependent arising and those dependently arisen phenomena according to actuality with perfect wisdom, it does not occur to him that he should run back to the past, saying 'Did I exist in the past?' 'Did I not exist in the past?' 'What was I in the past?' 'What was I like in the past?' 'Having been what, what did I become in the past?'

"Nor that he should run ahead to the future, saying, 'Shall I exist in the future?' 'Shall I not exist in the future,' 'What shall I be in the future?' 'What shall I be like in the future?' 'Being what, what shall I become in the future?'

"Nor that he should now in the present have doubts within himself, saying, 'Am I?' 'Am I not?' 'What am I?' 'What am I like?' 'This being [that is, myself], where did it come from, where will it go to?'

"What is the reason? It is because the noble disciple has well seen this dependent arising and these dependently arisen phenomena according to actuality with perfect wisdom.

Notes

[38] "Tathaagata" is a title of the Buddha. It means, "One who has thus (tathaa) come (aagata) or gone (gata)" to Enlightenment, as former Buddhas have done, or, "One who has arrived at (aagata) the Truth (tatha)." In the Paali scriptures the word is mostly used by the Buddha when referring to himself.

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:53 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:12 am

Being inwardly perplexed about the present, and sometimes inclined to run after past and future, I can deduce from this sutta that I haven't completely understood the sequence which it contains. I wonder who has understood it, and how I would know that they have? It would presumably be possible to settle the perplexity etc. without understanding this sequence as it appears. It would be even more possible to present a coherent "reading" of it and claim that one had set aside the perplexity, without having done so.

The sequence is (I assume for most of us) at odds with the way we see the world. I can't make sense of the listed phenomena, because I don't know whether they are to be understood in the abstract; in general terms; specific to human beings; or specific to me. So to see (say) birth clearly, and to see that it is dependent upon becoming as a requisite condition, and that it is inconstant, compounded, etc., I would need to know whether we are talking about birth as an abstract concept; all "births" of all possible phenomena; some "births" of some significant phenomena; human biological birth; or my own biological birth; etc. It is as if we have lost the context for this, and have to reconstruct it. Hence the many disagreements which this and similar suttas and expositions attract.

This seems all the more important, as I take the bit about "whether or not is the arising of a Tathagata..." to mean that irrespective of teachings and understandings, here is an account of the way things are.

The dependence (etc...) of ignorance is particularly interesting. What it depends upon is not given here, yet undermining ignorance is presumably the key to the whole sequence. There are of course other suttas which deal with this, and my approach is to try my best to do as they prescribe, in the hope that one day I will have more insight into this Paccaya Sutta. I will keep working at it, however, to see if progress is being made.

Step forward please you unperplexed people...

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:38 am


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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:10 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby daverupa » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:21 pm


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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby daverupa » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:26 pm


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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:41 pm


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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:45 pm

Last edited by Cittasanto on Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:58 pm


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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:22 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby vinasp » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:07 pm

Hi everyone,

"Monks,there are these four fears. What four? Fear of birth, fear
of old age, fear of disease and fear of death. These are the four
fears." [ PTS Gradual sayings II page 125 ]

AN - The Book of Fours # 119

Fear of birth?

If the word is "jati" then it is the same word that is used in Dependent
Origination. Does this show that "jati" was commonly used to mean re-birth?

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby vinasp » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:10 pm

Hi everyone,

A very interesting discourse. I prefer the John D. Ireland translation.

The first half is explaining Dependent Arising as a law, or general
principle, which is universally true at all times and places.

The interpretation changes with the time-scale adopted in the following way:

1. The three lifetimes model - here nama-rupa can be ones actual physical
body and ones actual mind, which have arisen due to ignorance and craving
in ones previous life.

2. The "limited to this life" model - here nothing in the series can be an
actual physical thing because ignorance is mental and only other mental
things can arise from it.

The second half is showing how the general principle is applied when
examining one's own mind. All these things are dependently arisen and
therefore impermanent, which means - capable of vanishing completely
and permanently, when ignorance ceases.

Dependent Origination shows how the illusion of an existing self has
come to be. So those who understand it no longer engage in speculation
about the self. They just desire to free themselves from this illusion.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:24 am


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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:02 pm

And what, bhikkhus, is dependent origination? ‘With birth as condition, aging-and-death [comes to be]’: whether there is an arising of Tathāgatas or no arising of Tathāgatas, that element still persists, the stableness of the Dhamma, the fixed course of the Dhamma, specific conditionality.

Ṭhitā va sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā.

Spk: That element (sā dhātu), the intrinsic nature of the conditions (paccayasabhāva), still persists; never is it the case that birth is not a condition for aging-and-death. By the next two terms too he indicates just the condition. For the dependently arisen phenomena stand because of the condition (paccayena hi paccayuppannā dhammā tiṭṭhanti); therefore the condition itself is called the stableness of the Dhamma (dhammaṭṭhitatā). The condition fixes (or determines) the dependent phenomena (paccayo dhamme niyameti); thus it is called the fixed course of the Dhamma (dhammaniyāmatā). Specific conditionality (idappaccayatā) is the set of specific conditions for aging-and-death, etc.

Spk-pṭ: Whether it is unpenetrated before and after the arising of Tathāgatas, or penetrated when they have arisen, that element still persists; it is not created by the Tathāgatas, but aging-and-death always occurs through birth as its condition. A Tathāgata simply discovers and proclaims this, but he does not invent it.

BB: At AN I 286,8-24
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
exactly the same statement is made about the three characteristics: “All formations are impermanent /suffering” and “All phenomena are nonself.” The two expressions, dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā, must thus have a meaning that is common to both dependent origination and the three characteristics, and it therefore seems unfitting to explain them here, as Spk does, in a way that is specifically tied to conditionality. Moreover, it is more likely that here dhamma means the principle or law-fulness that holds sway over phenomena, not the phenomena subject to that principle.


A Tathāgata awakens to this and breaks through to it.

BB: Abhisambujjhati abhisameti. The former verb, which is reserved for the Buddha’s enlightenment, is transitive. I thus render it “awakens to (with the object),” though otherwise I generally translate words derived from the verb bujjhati as expressing the sense of “enlightenment.”


Having done so, he explains it, teaches it, proclaims it, establishes it, discloses it, analyses it, elucidates it. And he says: ‘See! With birth as condition, bhikkhus, aging-and-death.’

BB: The Sinhala-script edition contains a footnote which explains that the statement below, “Thus, bhikkhus, the actuality in this ...” should be inserted at the end of each section on the conditioning relationships; and each following section should begin with the statement, “whether there is an arising of Tathāgatas....”

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:18 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:21 pm


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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:24 pm


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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:00 pm



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