I think Sankhara-Dukkhata is of wider significance than this, although you are undoubtedly correct to say that it refers to neutral feelings and to point out that such feelings pass away and become something which frequently is worse. But if that is all it is, then it could be considered as a form of Viparinama-Dukkhata. Stuff changes, we can't rely on it not hurting us. Existentially, there is a wider problem than the hedonic tone of our experiences, and this is captured in the "wrongness" of our being conditioned entities. Sankharas "put us together", so to speak, and reconstitute our existence as apparently separate beings with insatiable appetites. Ajahn Sucitto is very good on this aspect of Dhamma, and the audio link given by Mike above is well worth spending 50 minutes on.porpoise wrote:Yes, I think that's why this type of dukkha is associated with neutral feeling. Because our existence and experience is conditioned and uncertain, neutral feeling will inevitably "tip over", either into pleasant feeling ( cue the suffering of change ie loss of pleasant feeling ) or into unpleasant feeling ( cue the "ordinary" suffering of pain ).Sam Vega wrote: But Sankhara-Dukkhata seems to be the more important, as it underlies and conditions all our experience, whether or not physical and mental pain are actually present.
SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering
Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering
Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering
Dukkha-Dukkhataa for oneself arise, fade, and change to something else. Maybe into a neutral feeling? But most likely into a sense of relief, if one consider e.g. pain as a starting point. But in the context of not self it seems like Dhukka-Dukkhata have an more static (constant) attribute the others don't, and seems to depend on Sankhara-Dukkhataa or Vipariṇāma-Dukkhataa as underlying factors. Or does it not?Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish
-
- Posts: 10263
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
- Location: Andromeda looks nice
Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering
So which of these 3 types of dukkha is alleviated by developing insight?mikenz66 wrote: 1. Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish.
2. Viparinaama-dukkhataa, the suffering associated with pleasant bodily and mental feelings: "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change"
3. Sankhaara-dukkhataa, the suffering produced by all "conditioned phenomena". This includes also experiences associated with hedonically neutral feeling.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering
Hi porpoise,porpoise wrote:So which of these 3 types of dukkha is alleviated by developing insight?mikenz66 wrote: 1. Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish.
2. Viparinaama-dukkhataa, the suffering associated with pleasant bodily and mental feelings: "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change"
3. Sankhaara-dukkhataa, the suffering produced by all "conditioned phenomena". This includes also experiences associated with hedonically neutral feeling.
I think they all are. In the Saccasamyutta section of the Samyutta Nikaya (i.e. the section that deals specifically with the Four Noble Truths, the first of which is the truth of Dukkha) there are many exhortations to develop understanding of Dukkha, but the types of Dukkha are not differentiated as per SN 45.165.
But there are many references to the first Noble Truth being fully understood,which I think is indicative that whatever one is urged to do in order to develop the understanding, is fully effective. Sometimes one is urged to develop concentration, and sometimes one is urged to develop seclusion. (There is nothing specific about how to develop insight, but I think that this is another term for the "understanding" of the Noble Truths.)
SN 56.29, for example, has
And SN 56 24:Of these Four Noble Truths, Bhikkhus, there is a noble truth that is to be fully understood...And what, Bhikkhus, is the noble truth that is to be fully understood? The noble truth of suffering is to be fully understood...
So I think the fact that the truth is to be "fully understood" and that Arahants "fully awaken" is indicative that insight into this truth is complete and undifferentiated.Whatever Arahants, Perfectly Enlightened Ones, fully awakened...will fully awaken...have fully awakened to things as they really are, all have fully awakened to these Four Noble Truths as they really are.
-
- Posts: 10263
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
- Location: Andromeda looks nice
Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering
I agree that insight into dukkha is essential, but I was asking which types of dukkka are alleviated by such insight. Or to ask the question another way, which of these 3 types of dukkha cease as a result of insight?Sam Vega wrote:Hi porpoise,porpoise wrote:So which of these 3 types of dukkha is alleviated by developing insight?mikenz66 wrote: 1. Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish.
2. Viparinaama-dukkhataa, the suffering associated with pleasant bodily and mental feelings: "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change"
3. Sankhaara-dukkhataa, the suffering produced by all "conditioned phenomena". This includes also experiences associated with hedonically neutral feeling.
I think they all are. In the Saccasamyutta section of the Samyutta Nikaya (i.e. the section that deals specifically with the Four Noble Truths, the first of which is the truth of Dukkha) there are many exhortations to develop understanding of Dukkha, but the types of Dukkha are not differentiated as per SN 45.165.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering
Yes, good question. Cause for me it seems like the word dukkhataa not necessarily indicates oneself.I agree that insight into dukkha is essential, but I was asking which types of dukkka are alleviated by such insight. Or to ask the question another way, which of these 3 types of dukkha cease as a result of insight?
Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering
I think that as far as the suttas dealing with Dukkha are concerned, the clear inference is that all three types of Dukkha cease. But the sensible thing would be to work on the insight and find out for oneself.Caraka wrote:Yes, good question. Cause for me it seems like the word dukkhataa not necessarily indicates oneself.I agree that insight into dukkha is essential, but I was asking which types of dukkka are alleviated by such insight. Or to ask the question another way, which of these 3 types of dukkha cease as a result of insight?
The word dukhata is the abstract noun for the state of suffering
Code: Select all
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Dukkhata
- Cittasanto
- Posts: 6646
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
- Location: Ellan Vannin
- Contact:
Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering
the latter two in your list.porpoise wrote:So which of these 3 types of dukkha is alleviated by developing insight?mikenz66 wrote: 1. Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish.
2. Viparinaama-dukkhataa, the suffering associated with pleasant bodily and mental feelings: "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change"
3. Sankhaara-dukkhataa, the suffering produced by all "conditioned phenomena". This includes also experiences associated with hedonically neutral feeling.
the first is the first dart the latter seam to me to be sebsequent dart(s)
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering
Thanks for sharing resources with me
The approach I try to crasp the use of logic in the writing, without thinking which insight, Dhamma or what it could mean for oneself.
Logically one can look upon what happens for all, one individual isolated, or both those included. Already this discrimination imply different attributes for each of the dukkhataa. And I think time is always a logic factor, even if its not relevant in the big picture, it is always relevant in a pedagogic way of teaching. One can also assume that the teaching, ie. the chosen way of writing, are quite similar for many suttas. Interesting indeed.
What is dart(s)?
The approach I try to crasp the use of logic in the writing, without thinking which insight, Dhamma or what it could mean for oneself.
Logically one can look upon what happens for all, one individual isolated, or both those included. Already this discrimination imply different attributes for each of the dukkhataa. And I think time is always a logic factor, even if its not relevant in the big picture, it is always relevant in a pedagogic way of teaching. One can also assume that the teaching, ie. the chosen way of writing, are quite similar for many suttas. Interesting indeed.
What is dart(s)?
-
- Posts: 10263
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
- Location: Andromeda looks nice
Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering
That's what I assumed, but I'm now wondering whether first dart is the physical pain of dukkha-dukkhataa, with the second dart being the mental pain of dukkha-dukkhataa?Cittasanto wrote:the latter two in your list.porpoise wrote:So which of these 3 types of dukkha is alleviated by developing insight?mikenz66 wrote: 1. Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish.
2. Viparinaama-dukkhataa, the suffering associated with pleasant bodily and mental feelings: "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change"
3. Sankhaara-dukkhataa, the suffering produced by all "conditioned phenomena". This includes also experiences associated with hedonically neutral feeling.
the first is the first dart the latter seam to me to be sebsequent dart(s)
Buddha save me from new-agers!
-
- Posts: 10263
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
- Location: Andromeda looks nice
Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering
It's a reference to the Arrow Sutta, here is a brief extract:Caraka wrote:What is dart(s)?
"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental."
Buddha save me from new-agers!
- Ron-The-Elder
- Posts: 1909
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
- Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.
Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering
Sounds good on the surface, but my personal experience has been that if pain is ignored and medical care not sought, the disease processes progress and knee buckling physical pain makes one experience fear for the worsening of the pain. Death if painless is never feared, but a lingering, painful death is always feared. Hence the development of narcotics.porpoise wrote:It's a reference to the Arrow Sutta, here is a brief extract:Caraka wrote:What is dart(s)?
"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental."
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
- NoMoreSnoozeBar
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:01 pm
- Location: Virginia, USA
Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering
Well, I don't think that the sutta excerpt is calling for one to ignore a physical pain, but not to add to a physical pain with mental anguish. I would think that with insight and mindfulness, understanding and moving to alleviate causes of physical pain would be more possible.Ron-The-Elder wrote:Sounds good on the surface, but my personal experience has been that if pain is ignored and medical care not sought, the disease processes progress and knee buckling physical pain makes one experience fear for the worsening of the pain. Death if painless is never feared, but a lingering, painful death is always feared. Hence the development of narcotics.porpoise wrote:It's a reference to the Arrow Sutta, here is a brief extract:Caraka wrote:What is dart(s)?
"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental."
Be well!
~Chris
Metta,
~Chris
Hitting the snooze bar of life may seem easier, but practicing toward awakening is a much better idea.
~Chris
Hitting the snooze bar of life may seem easier, but practicing toward awakening is a much better idea.
Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering
Mike,
Thanks for posting this. Very useful.
All,
I intend to read all the links and listen to all the talks before I say much but I have one preliminary question.
Are we aiming for a one-to-one correspondence from Pali to English? I know no one's stated it, but it seems like an underlying assumption of the participants of this discussion.
Best,
Daniel
Thanks for posting this. Very useful.
All,
I intend to read all the links and listen to all the talks before I say much but I have one preliminary question.
Are we aiming for a one-to-one correspondence from Pali to English? I know no one's stated it, but it seems like an underlying assumption of the participants of this discussion.
Best,
Daniel
Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering
Hi Daniel,
Mike
Yes, there is a lot in this sutta, and those talks give various useful perspectives.danieLion wrote: I intend to read all the links and listen to all the talks before I say much but I have one preliminary question.
I think it's unlikely it will work well, particularly for words like dukkha or sankhara. However, I'm not completely sure what you are referring to. Speaking generally, what I sometimes see as problematical is to fixate on a particular English term, and then reading things into it that are not justified by the Pali term. In the case of dukkha, if we take "suffering" too literally as the translation then it seems puzzling when we read that dukkha can be associated with pleasant of neutral experiences.danieLion wrote: Are we aiming for a one-to-one correspondence from Pali to English? I know no one's stated it, but it seems like an underlying assumption of the participants of this discussion.
Mike