MN 2. Sabbāsava Sutta

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MN 2. Sabbāsava Sutta

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:12 am

MN 2
Sabbasava Sutta
All the Fermentations
Translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks: "Monks!"

"Yes, lord," the monks replied.

The Blessed One said, "Monks, the ending of the fermentations is for one who knows & sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & does not see. For one who knows what & sees what? Appropriate attention & inappropriate attention. When a monk attends inappropriately, unarisen fermentations arise, and arisen fermentations increase. When a monk attends appropriately, unarisen fermentations do not arise, and arisen fermentations are abandoned. There are fermentations to be abandoned by seeing, those to be abandoned by restraining, those to be abandoned by using, those to be abandoned by tolerating, those to be abandoned by avoiding, those to be abandoned by destroying, and those to be abandoned by developing.

"[1] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — does not discern what ideas are fit for attention or what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas fit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas unfit for attention.

"And what are the ideas unfit for attention that he attends to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality increases; the unarisen fermentation of becoming arises in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming increases; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance increases. These are the ideas unfit for attention that he attends to.

"And what are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of becoming does not arise in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance is abandoned. These are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to. Through his attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his not attending to ideas fit for attention, both unarisen fermentations arise in him, and arisen fermentations increase.

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

"The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — discerns what ideas are fit for attention and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention.

"And what are the ideas unfit for attention that he does not attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality increases; the unarisen fermentation of becoming arises in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming increases; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance increases. These are the ideas unfit for attention that he does not attend to.

"And what are the ideas fit for attention that he does attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of becoming does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of becoming is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance is abandoned. These are the ideas fit for attention that he does attend to. Through his not attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his attending to ideas fit for attention, unarisen fermentations do not arise in him, and arisen fermentations are abandoned.

"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing.

"[2] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by restraining? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, dwells restrained with the restraint of the eye-faculty. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were to dwell unrestrained with the restraint of the eye-faculty do not arise for him when he dwells restrained with the restraint of the eye-faculty.

Reflecting appropriately, he dwells restrained with the restraint of the ear-faculty...

Reflecting appropriately, he dwells restrained with the restraint of the nose-faculty...

Reflecting appropriately, he dwells restrained with the restraint of the tongue-faculty...

Reflecting appropriately, he dwells restrained with the restraint of the body-faculty...

Reflecting appropriately, he dwells restrained with the restraint of the intellect-faculty. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were to dwell unrestrained with the restraint of the intellect-faculty do not arise for him when he dwells restrained with the restraint of the intellect-faculty. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by restraining.

"[3] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by using? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, uses the robe simply to counteract cold, to counteract heat, to counteract the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles; simply for the purpose of covering the parts of the body that cause shame.

"Reflecting appropriately, he uses almsfood, not playfully, nor for intoxication, nor for putting on bulk, nor for beautification; but simply for the survival & continuance of this body, for ending its afflictions, for the support of the holy life, thinking, 'Thus will I destroy old feelings [of hunger] and not create new feelings [from overeating]. I will maintain myself, be blameless, & live in comfort.'

"Reflecting appropriately, he uses lodging simply to counteract cold, to counteract heat, to counteract the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles; simply for protection from the inclemencies of weather and for the enjoyment of seclusion.

"Reflecting appropriately, he uses medicinal requisites that are used for curing the sick simply to counteract any pains of illness that have arisen and for maximum freedom from disease.

"The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to use these things [in this way] do not arise for him when he uses them [in this way]. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by using.

"[4] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by tolerating? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, endures. He tolerates cold, heat, hunger, & thirst; the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles; ill-spoken, unwelcome words & bodily feelings that, when they arise, are painful, racking, sharp, piercing, disagreeable, displeasing, & menacing to life. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to tolerate these things do not arise for him when he tolerates them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by tolerating.

"[5] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by avoiding? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, avoids a wild elephant, a wild horse, a wild bull, a wild dog, a snake, a stump, a bramble patch, a chasm, a cliff, a cesspool, an open sewer. Reflecting appropriately, he avoids sitting in the sorts of unsuitable seats, wandering to the sorts of unsuitable habitats, and associating with the sorts of bad friends that would make his knowledgeable friends in the holy life suspect him of evil conduct. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to avoid these things do not arise for him when he avoids them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by avoiding.

"[6] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by destroying? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, does not tolerate an arisen thought of sensuality. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence.

Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate an arisen thought of ill will...

Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate an arisen thought of cruelty...

Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate arisen evil, unskillful mental qualities. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to destroy these things do not arise for him when he destroys them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by destroying.

"[7] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by developing? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, develops mindfulness as a factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in letting go. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening... persistence as a factor for Awakening... rapture as a factor for Awakening... serenity as a factor for Awakening... concentration as a factor for Awakening... equanimity as a factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in letting go. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to develop these qualities do not arise for him when he develops them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by developing.

"When a monk's fermentations that should be abandoned by seeing have been abandoned by seeing, his fermentations that should be abandoned by restraining have been abandoned by restraining, his fermentations that should be abandoned by using have been abandoned by using, his fermentations that should be abandoned by tolerating have been abandoned by tolerating, his fermentations that should be abandoned by avoiding have been abandoned by avoiding, his fermentations that should be abandoned by destroying have been abandoned by destroying, his fermentations that should be abandoned by developing have been abandoned by developing, then he is called a monk who dwells restrained with the restraint of all the fermentations. He has severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and — through the right penetration of conceit — has made an end of suffering & stress."

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

See also: AN 4.24; AN 5.140.


and from the study guide
2 Sabbāsava Sutta All the Taints v
SUMMARY
The Buddha teaches the bhikkhus (men who have gone forth into homelessness
under the guidance of the Buddha’s teaching) seven methods to restrain and
eventually destroy all the taints.
NOT ES
The taints (āsavas) are a classification of defilements that “defile, bring renewal
of being, give trouble, ripen in suffering, and lead to future birth, ageing and
death.” (This is a stock passage in the discourses, as in MN36.47. Also
explained on p. 38 in the Introduction.)
The three taints are:
1. craving for sensual pleasures,
2. craving for being,
3. ignorance
[3] Basically, when one attends unwisely, unarisen taints arise and arisen
taints increase. When one attends wisely, unarisen taints do not arise and
arisen taints are abandoned. One can destroy the taints if one knows how to
arouse wise attention and can see that unwise attention does not arise.
Note 33 explains: Unwise attention is attention that is the wrong means
(uppatha), on the wrong track, contrary to the truth, namely attention to the four
perversions of perception (see p. 9 of this manual). Wise attention is attention
that is the right means (upāya), on the right track, that accords with the truth.
What does “accords with the truth” mean? Simply perceiving things as they are:
impermanent as impermanent, painful as painful, notself
as notself,
foul as foul.
Wise attention is at the root of liberation because it leads to development of the
Noble Eightfold Path. Unwise attention is at the root of the round of existence
because it causes ignorance and craving to increase.
Seven ways toward the destruction of the taints:
Pressing Out Pure Ho ney 16
1. Seeing: seeing refers to the wise attention that leads to streamentry,
the
first stage of awakening (from Note 35). Essentially, the Buddha is
concerned with the nonarising
of sensual desire, of being, and of
ignorance.
[5] An untaught, ordinary person does not understand what things are fit
for attention and what things are unfit for attention. Since that is so, he
attends to those things unfit for attention and does not attend to those
things fit for attention. (MN114 has a complete list of what should be
cultivated.) [610]
When one is attending wisely (seeing), these taints do
not arise and if they do, they can be abandoned.
[9] The person of the Dharma “understands what things are fit for attention
and what things are unfit for attention. Since that is so, he does not attend
to those things unfit for attention and he attends to those things fit for
attention.”
[78]
When one attends unwisely, one of six [speculative] views arise:
a) Self exists for me
b) No self exists for me
c) I perceive self with self
d) I perceive notself
with self
e) I perceive self with notself
f) It is this self of mine that speaks and feels and experiences here and
there the result of good and bad actions; but this self of mine is
permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and it will
endure as long as eternity.
(See Note 39 and 40 for further understanding.)
[8] QUOTE: “This speculative view, bhikkhus, is called the thicket of views,
the wilderness of views, the contortion of views, the vacillation of views,
the fetter of views. Fettered by the fetter of views, the untaught ordinary
person is not freed from birth, ageing, and death, from sorrow, lamentation,
pain, grief, and despair; he is not freed from suffering, I say.”
2. Restraining: the six sense doors—the eye, nose, ear, tongue, body and
mind faculties.
3. Using: wisely, the robe, food, resting place and medicine, mainly for
protection, not for indulgence.
4. Enduring: discomfort of the physical body, unwelcome words.
5. Avoiding: dangerous animals and environments; sitting on unsuitable
seats (sexual reference); wandering into unsuitable resorts; associating
with bad friends.
6. Removing: arisen thoughts of sensual desire, ill will, cruelty, evil
unwholesome (unskillful) states; one abandons them, removes them, does
away with them, and annihilates them.
7. Developing: the seven enlightenment factors.

Note 32 points out that “restraint of all the taints” is fivefold: through virtue (by
avoiding sexual provocation); through mindfulness (by restraining the sense
faculties); through knowledge (by reflecting wisely); through energy (by removing
unwholesome thoughts); and through patience (by enduring).
PRACT ICE
1. Practice wise attention so you know well how it differs from unwise attention.
This means practice perceiving things as they are—impermanent, unsatisfactory
(dukkha) and notself.
2. Choose one of the seven ways toward destroying the
taints and put it into practice for a designated period of time so you have a clear
sense what is meant. 3. Ask yourself if your views and opinions are based on
any of the questions that the Buddha says are unfit for attention.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: MN 2. Sabbāsava Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:32 am

Here's the sutta about using some defilements to get rid of defilements:

AN 4.159 PTS: A ii 144
Bhikkhuni Sutta: The Nun
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997–2009 I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's Park. Then a certain nun said to a certain man, "Go, my good man, to my lord Ananda and, on arrival, bowing your head to his feet in my name, tell him, 'The nun named such-and-such, venerable sir, is sick, in pain, severely ill. She bows her head to the feet of her lord Ananda and says, "It would be good if my lord Ananda were to go to the nuns' quarters, to visit this nun out of sympathy for her."'"

Responding, "Yes, my lady," the man then approached Ven. Ananda and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to Ven. Ananda, "The nun named such-and-such, venerable sir, is sick, in pain, severely ill. She bows her head to the feet of her lord Ananda and says, 'It would be good if my lord Ananda were to go to the nuns' quarters, to visit this nun out of sympathy for her.'"

Ven. Ananda accepted with silence.

Then in the early morning, having put on his robes and, carrying his bowl and outer robe, he went to the nuns' quarters. The nun saw Ven. Ananda coming from afar. On seeing him, she lay down on a bed, having covered her head.

Then Ven. Ananda approached the nun and, on arrival, sat down on a prepared seat. As he was sitting there, he said to the nun: "This body, sister, comes into being through food. And yet it is by relying on food that food is to be abandoned.

"This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.

"This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.

"This body comes into being through sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse is to be abandoned. With regard to sexual intercourse, the Buddha declares the cutting off of the bridge.

"'This body, sister, comes into being through food. And yet it is by relying on food that food is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk, considering it thoughtfully, takes food — not playfully, nor for intoxication, nor for putting on bulk, nor for beautification — but simply for the survival & continuance of this body, for ending its afflictions, for the support of the holy life, [thinking,] 'Thus will I destroy old feelings [of hunger] and not create new feelings [from overeating]. I will maintain myself, be blameless, & live in comfort.' Then, at a later time, he abandons food, having relied on food. 'This body, sister, comes into being through food. And yet it is by relying on food that food is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.

"'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'I hope that I, too, will — through the ending of the fermentations — enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for myself in the here & now.' Then, at a later time, he abandons craving, having relied on craving. 'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.

"'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now. Then why not me?' Then, at a later time, he abandons conceit, having relied on conceit. 'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.

"This body comes into being through sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse is to be abandoned. With regard to sexual intercourse, the Buddha declares the cutting off of the bridge."

Then the nun — getting up from her bed, arranging her upper robe over one shoulder, and bowing down with her head at Ven. Ananda's feet — said, "A transgression has overcome me, venerable sir, in that I was so foolish, so muddle-headed, and so unskilled as to act in this way. May my lord Ananda please accept this confession of my transgression as such, so that I may restrain myself in the future."

"Yes, sister, a transgression overcame you in that you were so foolish, so muddle-headed, and so unskilled as to act in this way. But because you see your transgression as such and make amends in accordance with the Dhamma, we accept your confession. For it is a cause of growth in the Dhamma & Discipline of the noble ones when, seeing a transgression as such, one makes amends in accordance with the Dhamma and exercises restraint in the future."

That is what Ven. Ananda said. Gratified, the nun delighted in Ven. Ananda's words.
With Metta

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Re: MN 2. Sabbāsava Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:49 am

yoniso manasikara 'appropriate attention' is one of the factors of stream entry
1) association with spiritual friends (ie- stream entrants and above in this case as well as dhamma teachers)
2) listening to the true dhamma (from a strean entrant or above)
3) yoniso manasikara- contemplating the world according to what has been heard, in the present moment
4) practice according to the dhamma (contemplating according to '3' leads to practice which leads to disenchantment, dispassion and cessation- according to the definition of 'practice according to the dhamma' ' dhammanudhamma pratipada)

hence it shows here how the 3 fetters which are broken at stream entry are broken with yoniso manasikara
the contemplation of the four noble truths should be understood in conjunction with everythign else the stream entrant is supposed to understand (nama rupa, hethu phala, tilakkana, udaya vyaya), and seems to be the final contemplation which leads to it
With Metta

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Re: MN 2. Sabbāsava Sutta

Postby Sher » Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:10 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Here's the sutta about using some defilements to get rid of defilements:

AN 4.159 PTS: A ii 144
Bhikkhuni Sutta: The Nun
translated from the Pali by
SNIP.


Hello rowyourboat--what is your interpretation regarding "using" defilements to get rid of defilements? At first , I was thinking of how this works in Tibetan types of practice, but from the sutta you posted, I don't interpret in this way at all. To me it seems "using defilements" to get rid of defilements simply means one uses an awareness of the nature of thos defilements as part of the process that brings one toward freedom from the defilements. Do you see it in another way?

The way I described above to use defilements also seems more in line with Mn 2 Sabbasava Sutta.

Sher
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Re: MN 2. Sabbāsava Sutta

Postby Sher » Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:12 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Here's the sutta about using some defilements to get rid of defilements:

AN 4.159 PTS: A ii 144
Bhikkhuni Sutta: The Nun
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997–2009 I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's Park. Then a certain nun said to a certain man, "Go, my good man, to my lord Ananda and, on arrival, bowing your head to his feet in my name, tell him, 'The nun named such-and-such, venerable sir, is sick, in pain, severely ill. She bows her head to the feet of her lord Ananda and says, "It would be good if my lord Ananda were to go to the nuns' quarters, to visit this nun out of sympathy for her."'"

Responding, "Yes, my lady," the man then approached Ven. Ananda and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to Ven. Ananda, "The nun named such-and-such, venerable sir, is sick, in pain, severely ill. She bows her head to the feet of her lord Ananda and says, 'It would be good if my lord Ananda were to go to the nuns' quarters, to visit this nun out of sympathy for her.'"

Ven. Ananda accepted with silence.

Then in the early morning, having put on his robes and, carrying his bowl and outer robe, he went to the nuns' quarters. The nun saw Ven. Ananda coming from afar. On seeing him, she lay down on a bed, having covered her head.

Then Ven. Ananda approached the nun and, on arrival, sat down on a prepared seat. As he was sitting there, he said to the nun: "This body, sister, comes into being through food. And yet it is by relying on food that food is to be abandoned.

"This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.

"This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.

"This body comes into being through sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse is to be abandoned. With regard to sexual intercourse, the Buddha declares the cutting off of the bridge.

"'This body, sister, comes into being through food. And yet it is by relying on food that food is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk, considering it thoughtfully, takes food — not playfully, nor for intoxication, nor for putting on bulk, nor for beautification — but simply for the survival & continuance of this body, for ending its afflictions, for the support of the holy life, [thinking,] 'Thus will I destroy old feelings [of hunger] and not create new feelings [from overeating]. I will maintain myself, be blameless, & live in comfort.' Then, at a later time, he abandons food, having relied on food. 'This body, sister, comes into being through food. And yet it is by relying on food that food is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.

"'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'I hope that I, too, will — through the ending of the fermentations — enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for myself in the here & now.' Then, at a later time, he abandons craving, having relied on craving. 'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.

"'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now. Then why not me?' Then, at a later time, he abandons conceit, having relied on conceit. 'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.

"This body comes into being through sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse is to be abandoned. With regard to sexual intercourse, the Buddha declares the cutting off of the bridge."

Then the nun — getting up from her bed, arranging her upper robe over one shoulder, and bowing down with her head at Ven. Ananda's feet — said, "A transgression has overcome me, venerable sir, in that I was so foolish, so muddle-headed, and so unskilled as to act in this way. May my lord Ananda please accept this confession of my transgression as such, so that I may restrain myself in the future."

"Yes, sister, a transgression overcame you in that you were so foolish, so muddle-headed, and so unskilled as to act in this way. But because you see your transgression as such and make amends in accordance with the Dhamma, we accept your confession. For it is a cause of growth in the Dhamma & Discipline of the noble ones when, seeing a transgression as such, one makes amends in accordance with the Dhamma and exercises restraint in the future."

That is what Ven. Ananda said. Gratified, the nun delighted in Ven. Ananda's words.


What are the implications of the above underlined passage? Did the nun pretend that she was sick, so that Ananda would come visit and teach her? Or is something else implied here? Sher
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Re: MN 2. Sabbāsava Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:05 pm

Hi Sher,

Yes, the method you mentioned is used as well but makes the defilement loose it's 'teeth' as it were when someone is mindful of it. The method used in the sabbasava sutta does not require awareness of it- ie -it seems to be unintentional, but works out for the best.

See below:

C. Mind
"And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.

OR

D. Mental Qualities
"And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves?

[1] "There is the case where a monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances. And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances? There is the case where, there being sensual desire present within, a monk discerns that 'There is sensual desire present within me.' Or, there being no sensual desire present within, he discerns that 'There is no sensual desire present within me.' He discerns how there is the arising of unarisen sensual desire. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of sensual desire once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of sensual desire that has been abandoned. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining hindrances: ill will, sloth & drowsiness, restlessness & anxiety, and uncertainty.)

As for the nuns- some of them were rather attached to Ven Ananda. He formed a liaison between them and the Buddha and there are other suttas where they glorify Ven Ananda and disparage other great monks (Ven Kassapa) because of it. There may have been faking illness or sensual craving in her mind -someone else might know the story behind this sutta better.

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Re: MN 2. Sabbāsava Sutta

Postby Sher » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:57 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Hi Sher,

Yes, the method you mentioned is used as well but makes the defilement loose it's 'teeth' as it were when someone is mindful of it. The method used in the sabbasava sutta does not require awareness of it- ie -it seems to be unintentional, but works out for the best.

See below:

C. Mind
"And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.

OR

D. Mental Qualities
"And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves?

[1] "There is the case where a monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances. And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances? There is the case where, there being sensual desire present within, a monk discerns that 'There is sensual desire present within me.' Or, there being no sensual desire present within, he discerns that 'There is no sensual desire present within me.' He discerns how there is the arising of unarisen sensual desire. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of sensual desire once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of sensual desire that has been abandoned. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining hindrances: ill will, sloth & drowsiness, restlessness & anxiety, and uncertainty.)

As for the nuns- some of them were rather attached to Ven Ananda. He formed a liaison between them and the Buddha and there are other suttas where they glorify Ven Ananda and disparage other great monks (Ven Kassapa) because of it. There may have been faking illness or sensual craving in her mind -someone else might know the story behind this sutta better.

with metta


Yes, I do recall that Ananda stuck up for the nuns, and also that because Buddha allowed nuns to be ordained, the Buddha said the dhamma would fade from the world sooner. AND, that makes me wonder if what happened here is somehow a reflection of that. I haven't yet come across a sutta where a monk did a similar thing; yet, monks would have been just as beset by sexuality as any nun, but I get the feeling that the female is seen by the sutta writers as a bigger threat to dhamma because of their sexuality than the monks were in their sexuality. This "just" an impression; I am not certain. I haven't taken up the study of it, but I thought of this before, and then I thought of it again when I read the example you posted.

If anyone else has anymore thoughts or knowledge on this topic, I'd appreciate hearing your understanding.

And, thanks, rowyourboat, for your other explanations, Sher
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Re: MN 2. Sabbāsava Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:35 pm

Hi Sher,

No not only nuns developed craving. see below: (I'm not sure why Ven Ananda is again involved!)

SN 8.4 PTS: S i 188 CDB i 283
Ananda Sutta: Ananda
(Instructions to Vangisa)
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1998–2009
On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then early in the morning he put on his robes and, carrying his bowl & outer robe, went into Savatthi for alms with Ven. Vangisa as his attendant monk. Now at that time dissatisfaction (with the chaste life) had arisen in Ven. Vangisa. Lust invaded his mind. So he addressed Ven. Ananda with this verse:


With sensual lust I burn.
My mind is on fire.
Please, Gotama, from compassion,
tell me how
to put it out.

[Ven. Ananda:]
From distorted perception
your mind is on fire.
Shun the theme of the beautiful
accompanied by lust.
See mental fabrications as other,
as stress,
& not-self.

Extinguish your great lust.
Don't keep burning again & again.


Develop the mind
— well-centered & one —
in the foul,
through the foul.
Have your mindfulness
immersed in the body.
Be one who pursues
disenchantment.
Develop the theme-less.
Cast out conceit.
Then, from breaking through
conceit,
you will go on your way

at peace.
With Metta

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Re: MN 2. Sabbāsava Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:51 pm

As for gender, enlightened being seek to go beyond it:

SN 5.2 PTS: S i 129 CDB i 222
Soma Sutta: Sister Soma
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1998–2009

At Savatthi. Then, early in the morning, Soma the nun put on her robes and, taking her bowl & outer robe, went into Savatthi for alms. When she had gone for alms in Savatthi and had returned from her alms round, after her meal she went to the Grove of the Blind to spend the day. Having gone deep into the Grove of the Blind, she sat down at the foot of a tree for the day's abiding.

Then Mara the Evil One, wanting to arouse fear, horripilation, & terror in her, wanting to make her fall away from concentration, approached her & addressed her in verse:


That
which is
to be attained by seers
— the place so very hard to reach —
women
can't
— with their two-inch discernment —
attain.
Then the thought occurred to Soma the nun: "Now who has recited this verse — a human being or a non-human one?" Then it occurred to her: "This is Mara the Evil One, who has recited this verse wanting to arouse fear, horripilation, & terror in me, wanting to make me fall away from concentration."

Then, having understood that "This is Mara the Evil One," she replied to him in verses:


What
difference
does being a woman make
when the mind's well-centered,
when knowledge is progressing,
seeing clearly, rightly,
into the Dhamma.

Anyone who thinks
'I'm a woman'
or 'a man'
or 'Am I anything at all?' —
that's who Mara's
fit to address.
Then Mara the Evil One — sad & dejected at realizing, "Soma the nun knows me" — vanished right there.
With Metta

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Re: MN 2. Sabbāsava Sutta

Postby Sher » Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:06 pm

As for gender, enlightened being seek to go beyond it:

SN 5.2 PTS: S i 129 CDB i 222
SNIP

rowyourboat, this sutta is helpful. Your comment above really struck me, because I have been thinking that going beyond also applies to death. I was asking is it aversion to death that inspires a Buddhist toward enlightenment? But how could that be when aversion is a defilement? It occurred to me --it is a going beyond not an aversion to rebirth and death that culminates in nibbana. And it makes sense to me its a going beyond gender also.

I appreciate this sutta--for as she saw things as they were delusion simply fell away.

Sher
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Re: MN 2. Sabbāsava Sutta

Postby Sher » Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:14 pm

rowyourboat wrote:yoniso manasikara 'appropriate attention' is one of the factors of stream entry
1) association with spiritual friends (ie- stream entrants and above in this case as well as dhamma teachers)
2) listening to the true dhamma (from a strean entrant or above)
3) yoniso manasikara- contemplating the world according to what has been heard, in the present moment
4) practice according to the dhamma (contemplating according to '3' leads to practice which leads to disenchantment, dispassion and cessation- according to the definition of 'practice according to the dhamma' ' dhammanudhamma pratipada)

hence it shows here how the 3 fetters which are broken at stream entry are broken with yoniso manasikara
the contemplation of the four noble truths should be understood in conjunction with everythign else the stream entrant is supposed to understand (nama rupa, hethu phala, tilakkana, udaya vyaya), and seems to be the final contemplation which leads to it



In the back of The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha translated by Bhikkhu Majjhima Nikaya I discovered notes for each of the suttas, and there is a helpful note--note 33 on yoniso manasikara on page 1169.

Also, can anyone tell me what is the difference between MA or Majjhima Nikaya Atthakatha and MN Majjhima Nikaya, because the translators, in the notes, continually refer to the MA, but when noting aspects of the suutas in MN? Thanks, Sher
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Re: MN 2. Sabbāsava Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:27 pm

Sher wrote:Also, can anyone tell me what is the difference between MA or Majjhima Nikaya Atthakatha and MN Majjhima Nikaya, because the translators, in the notes, continually refer to the MA, but when noting aspects of the suutas in MN?

MA is the Commentary on MN.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atthakatha
Some individual Suttas and a few of the books of the Khuddaka-nikāya have complete translations into English.
http://www.palitext.com/
For the rest, one has to read them in Pali, or rely on translators to summarise the salient points.

Here's the Commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta, to give you a flavour:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... wayof.html
You'll see that there is a line-by-line description which is many times longer than the original Sutta.

Metta
Mike




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Re: MN 2. Sabbāsava Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:00 pm

Hi Sher
The buddhas teaching does have a practical application- that is the complete ending of suffering- whether you want to believe in the one life version or multiple births and deaths version- the practice and end result is the same.

It is possible to understand suffering as suffering (birth, old age, death etc) through wisdom, without having aversion towards it. The buddhist path is the result of the search for the solution. If there is aversion towards life or death , then that is a falling away from the path which seeks to detach, to fall away, rather than to have aversion. You could call it a middle path through craving and aversion.

with metta

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Re: MN 2. Sabbāsava Sutta

Postby Sher » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:19 am

MA is the Commentary on MN.

Thanks Mike.
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Re: MN 2. Sabbāsava Sutta

Postby Sher » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:22 am

rowyourboat wrote:Hi Sher
The buddhas teaching does have a practical application- that is the complete ending of suffering- whether you want to believe in the one life version or multiple births and deaths version- the practice and end result is the same.

It is possible to understand suffering as suffering (birth, old age, death etc) through wisdom, without having aversion towards it. The buddhist path is the result of the search for the solution.Yes. If there is aversion towards life or death , then that is a falling away from the path which seeks to detach, to fall away, rather than to have aversion. You could call it a middle path through craving and aversion. so well said--thanks, Sher

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