Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Just to add to the cookies & retro
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .olen.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have just been reading Western Buddhism and a Theravâda Heterodoxy An Inquiry into a Practice Propagated as Theravâda Buddhism by Dr V. A. Gunasekara and noticed this in regard to the satipatthana sutta

1 - This Sutta should be undertaken by persons "having overcome in this world covetousness and discontent" (vineyya loke abhijjâ domanassa.m). In actual practice many persons seem to look upon the simplified presentation of this Sutta by the meditation teacher as a substitute for overcoming covetousness and other worldly evils. After having done their daily or weekly quota of the "contemplation of the body" they go right back to their old "covetous" ways!
2 - The contemplations in the Sutta can only be done in an empty room (suññâgâra), or if people prefer the outdoors in the forest or at a root of a tree. This rules out communal meditation, a subject to which we shall return again.
3 - (3) No time duration is given and the same fruits are said to be capable of being realised whether the Satip.t.tâna is observed for seven years or seven days.12

I personally think the first and second points are wrong particularly the first the sutta s translated in this thread clearly says

Ekāyano ayaṃ, bhikkhave, maggo sattānaṃ visuddhiyā, sokaparidevānaṃ samatikkamāya, dukkhadomanassānaṃ atthaṅgamāya, ñāyassa adhigamāya, nibbānassa sacchikiriyāya, yadidaṃ cattāro satipaṭṭhānā
The Blessed One said this: "This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference. Which four?

which is quite specific the pali he is quoting is from the next passage

Katame cattāro? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno3 satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Citte cittānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ
"There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

which has a specific meaning in the context.

http://www.tipitaka.org/stp-pali-eng-parallel" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
the link I got the pali comparison from but did use Thanisaros translation.

Manapa wrote:I did mean to ask where the not is found?

On page 1189 of The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha as translated by Ven. Nanamoli and Ven. Bodhi.

Jechbi wrote:

Manapa wrote:I did mean to ask where the not is found?

On page 1189 of The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha as translated by Ven. Nanamoli and Ven. Bodhi.

chears

Hi Sher
Using foulness is part of the satipatthana as well- note the 'five hindrances' include knowing ways of getting rid of them. I think the Buddha would have approved of your seeing mold etc to get rid of the craving as what matters is not the external method you are using but the end result. He has states that whatever gets rid of craving, aversion and delusion, even if it is a method from another religion, is good to practice. We cannot leave out the rest of suttas and consider the four foundations in isolation -and this is often a mistake easy to make because of its importance. However as retro a mike mentioned mindfulness alone can be used as well. I do find that sometimes mindfulness can lead to samatha- mere suppression of defilements without any real understanding generated. No generation of an understanding of the drawbacks of phenomena. Especially for the stronger defilements like craving to food and the body- a strong meditation on foulness ('big gun' methods)is very helpful to begin with. Once it is weakened mindfulness ('scalpel' methods) alone can do the trick of wiping out the more subtle hard to reach remnants of defilements. These big gun methods are often methods of appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) -the thing that the Buddha mentioned as the most useful internal thing in realizing nibbana. When such strong statements are made about it, it should not be neglected- and good to remember in a discussion like this.

One could make an argument for weakening hindrances like craving before (only partially though- setting aside greed and distress etc) or after the satipattana (completely) - as sometimes mentioned in the suttas. Note that craving is part of the mindfulness of the mind, five hindrances sections of this sutta. Hindrances are completely removed at the arahanth level. It is a part of gradual practice.

mindfulness -because of its non-reactive nature- can slow down defilements- making them sluggish- without feeding them- they pass away quicker. However this is samatha- a method a quietening the mind. When through mindfulness the yogi begins to see drawbacks (anicca, dukkha, anatta, insubstantiality, the deceiving nature) true insight meditation/vipassana begins..literally starts only at that point.

with metta

Why there are four foundations:

§ 44.
It is just as if there were a great pile of dust at a four-way
intersection. If a cart or chariot came from the east, that pile of
dust would be totally leveled. If a cart or chariot came from the
west... from the north... from the south, that pile of dust would be
totally leveled. In the same way, when a monk remains focused on the
body in & of itself, then evil, unskillful qualities are totally
leveled. If he remains focused on feelings... mind... mental
qualities in & of themselves, then evil, unskillful qualities are
totally leveled.
— SN 54.10

rowyourboat wrote:One could make an argument for weakening hindrances like craving before (only partially though- setting aside greed and distress etc) or after the satipattana (completely) - as sometimes mentioned in the suttas. Note that craving is part of the mindfulness of the mind, five hindrances sections of this sutta. Hindrances are completely removed at the arahanth level. It is a part of gradual practice.

mindfulness -because of its non-reactive nature- can slow down defilements- making them sluggish- without feeding them- they pass away quicker. However this is samatha- a method a quietening the mind. When through mindfulness the yogi begins to see drawbacks (anicca, dukkha, anatta, insubstantiality, the deceiving nature) true insight meditation/vipassana begins..literally starts only at that point.

with metta

Hi Row,
Craving is in the four noble truths section of the sutta.

mindfulness is non-reactive? that isn't mindfulness but equanimity and/or patience. equanimity may be part of the foundations of mindfulness (setting aside greed and distress in regard to the world, but this could also refer to the third noble truth Letting go) as seeing the references with greed and/or distress wouldn't get us far, but it is not the whole part of mindfulness there is also ardent, alert and being mindful, mindful meaning recollecting our duties (recollecting being another translation of sati).

ps Duties being the object of meditation, reflecting on the use of it, and swopping to a more appropriate one if needs be.

Hi Manapa,

I was surprised that you did not recognise what I meant when I said mindfulness is non-reactive But we can pursue to entirely from an academic perspective if you prefer.

sati leads to samadhi (onepointedness) [see the five spiritual faculties] and that can lead to equanimity [see the the seven factors of enlightenment]

atapi
refers to effort
effort to be mindful, effort leads to mindfulness [see five spiritual faculties]

sampajano, satima
common translation- clearly knowing, clear comprehension
but look at what the suttas say (in short it refers to seeing arising and passing away)
yes we do start with being mindful of the daily duties, but then our mindfulness faculty grows so that we can become aware of distinct movements of our bodies while doing those duties and seeing how they arise, persist and pass away.

Mindful & Alert (satima sampajano). Stay mindful, monks, and alert. This is our
instruction to you all. And how is a monk mindful? There is the case
where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent,
alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to
the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities
in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed &
distress with reference to the world [§213]. This is how a monk is
mindful.

And how is a monk alert? There is the case where feelings are known
to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they
subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they
persist, known as they subside. Discernment (vl: perception) is known
to him as it arises, known as it persists, known as it subsides. This
is how a monk is alert. So stay mindful, monks, and alert. This is
our instruction to you all.
— SN 47.35

vineyya loke abhijjadomanassan

putting aside craving and aversion/sadness (which is a form of aversion, arising from craving) because the hindrances need to be kept at bay to some degree otherwise we would be lost in thoughts generated by those hindrances, unable to maintain mindfulness. some people here would know how useful developing one-pointedness (samadhi, samatha) is to the development of sati. The same mechanism works there.

rowyourboat wrote:Hi Manapa,

I was surprised that you did not recognise what I meant when I said mindfulness is non-reactive But we can pursue to entirely from an academic perspective if you prefer.

OK I still don't see how you are defining mindfulness as non-reactive

oh sorry, I was attempting to show how mindfulness, via samadhi, leads to equanimity- hence non-reactive to whatever is thrown at the mindful person. yes, you are correct to say that mindfulness is in itself..just awareness (there is an element of remembering as well).

with metta

rowyourboat wrote:Why there are four foundations:

§ 44.
It is just as if there were a great pile of dust at a four-way
intersection. If a cart or chariot came from the east, that pile of
dust would be totally leveled. If a cart or chariot came from the
west... from the north... from the south, that pile of dust would be
totally leveled. In the same way, when a monk remains focused on the
body in & of itself, then evil, unskillful qualities are totally
leveled. If he remains focused on feelings... mind... mental
qualities in & of themselves, then evil, unskillful qualities are
totally leveled.
— SN 54.10

Yes, and there is just one pile of dust.

rowyourboat wrote:oh sorry, I was attempting to show how mindfulness, via samadhi, leads to equanimity- hence non-reactive to whatever is thrown at the mindful person. yes, you are correct to say that mindfulness is in itself..just awareness (there is an element of remembering as well).

with metta

where did I say mindfulness is just awareness?
mindfulness is mindfulness it is reactive, the present moment isn't just what we find, it is also the kamma we choose, if we were FSM or some other deity who is far removed from the world we could be aware of what was going on without reacting, but we live in the world and the present moment we experiance we are a part of and the kamma we preform in the moment or to put it another way the choices we make effects the next, even equanimity has this, and feeds back into mindfulness also, it isn't being neutral but a balancing of our mind which is represented in the foundations of mindfulness as setting aside greed and distress in regard to the world.

appicchato wrote:Connected in an around about way the essay by Nyanaponika Thera on the four nutriments is an incredible (for me) way of looking at things...especially the 'four frames of reference'...for those unfamiliar with it, check it out...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el105.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A very interesting article. I noticed it brings up various points that others have mentioned, and yet also brings in some new ideas--such as food devouring us in addition to us devouring it. I haven't finished it all yet, but thanks for posting this link. Sher